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AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign

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  • Brian Downey
    Hi Folks, An interesting series of assertions made by cavalry guru Eric Wittenberg on his blog relating to Gen McClellan s lack of (effective) use therof -
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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      Hi Folks,

      An interesting series of assertions made by cavalry guru Eric
      Wittenberg on his blog relating to Gen McClellan's lack of (effective)
      use therof -

      http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=89

      I'm not sure I agree with what he calls "glaring errors", but neither
      cavalry nor 'what-ifs' are my strong suit ...

      See what you think.

      Brian
    • G E Mayers
      Brian, Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I do not think there is a finer scholar out there on that question. Very respectfully,
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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        Brian,

        Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I do not
        think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.

        Very respectfully,
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
        and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
        to preserve it, save that of honour."
        --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 11:29 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


        > Hi Folks,
        >
        > An interesting series of assertions made by cavalry guru Eric
        > Wittenberg on his blog relating to Gen McClellan's lack of (effective)
        > use therof -
        >
        > http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=89
        >
        > I'm not sure I agree with what he calls "glaring errors", but neither
        > cavalry nor 'what-ifs' are my strong suit ...
        >
        > See what you think.
        >
        > Brian
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Marc73@aol.com
        In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gerry1952@fast.net writes: Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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          In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          gerry1952@... writes:

          Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I do not
          think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.

          Very respectfully,
          G E "Gerry" Mayers



          I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the years
          including tours and the written word.



          Marc Riddell

          83rd PVI
          2nd USSS
          Potomac Legion
          Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
          _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
          "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Brian Downey
          Guys, I m not arguing Eric s qualifications or reputation on cavalry operations. He s the man. No discussion. He made a statement about McClellan picketing
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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            Guys,

            I'm not arguing Eric's qualifications or reputation on cavalry
            operations. He's the man. No discussion.

            He made a statement about McClellan picketing the Harpers Ferry Road
            that raised a question in my mind about just how, exactly, he would
            have been able to get his troopers there.

            I didn't want to get into a what-if discussion with Eric on the blog -
            hardly worth his time. Perhaps this group would like to consider it:

            Look at a map and picture the relative positions of the AoP and the
            various elements of the ANV during the period 13-19 September.
            Remember that McC couldn't even get a courier through to HF to tell
            them to hang on prior to its surrender ...

            So, how much Federal Cavalry would he have had to send down Pleasant
            Valley to break through from that direction on or after September 15?
            Would that have been a fight worth making? Was there another route
            to the HF Road south of Sharpsburg open to McClellan anytime before
            September 19th? Wasn't most of the ANV between the AoP and Sharpsburg
            from the 14th onward?

            Eric alluded to Col. "Grimes" Davis' break-out from HF (14-15 Sept)
            and that they joined the AoP by the HF Road. Suggesting, perhaps, that
            Pleasonton could have taken the same path, in reverse. Well ... not
            exactly. Davis apparently took his men onto the HF Road only part of
            the way to Sharpsburg. He then headed north and west, captured a
            train of Longstreet's wagons near Williamsport (!) and ended up in
            Greencastle, Pennsylvania (!!) on 15 September. He did not join the AoP.

            Ah well, I'm probably over my head here, and it's all hypothetical
            anyway,

            Regards,
            Brian

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Marc73@a... wrote:
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            > gerry1952@f... writes:
            >
            > Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
            do not
            > think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.
            >
            > Very respectfully,
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            >
            >
            > I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the
            years
            > including tours and the written word.
            >
            >
            >
            > Marc Riddell
            >
            > 83rd PVI
            > 2nd USSS
            > Potomac Legion
            > Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
            > _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
            > "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Brian, What you said about Grimes Davis is correct......He got through the Sharpsburg area, IIRC, only by going across country and even then, had some close
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 4, 2006
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              Brian,

              What you said about Grimes Davis is correct......He got through the
              Sharpsburg area, IIRC, only by going across country and even then, had some
              close calls with Confederate patrols.

              As for Pleasanton? IIRC, he could have swung wide down to Berlin and over,
              but I would have to look at a map.

              I thought Franklin was supposed to punch through the Confederate lines once
              he went through Crampton's Gap to relieve HF.

              Very respectfully,
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
              and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
              to preserve it, save that of honour."
              --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:26 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


              > Guys,
              >
              > I'm not arguing Eric's qualifications or reputation on cavalry
              > operations. He's the man. No discussion.
              >
              > He made a statement about McClellan picketing the Harpers Ferry Road
              > that raised a question in my mind about just how, exactly, he would
              > have been able to get his troopers there.
              >
              > I didn't want to get into a what-if discussion with Eric on the blog -
              > hardly worth his time. Perhaps this group would like to consider it:
              >
              > Look at a map and picture the relative positions of the AoP and the
              > various elements of the ANV during the period 13-19 September.
              > Remember that McC couldn't even get a courier through to HF to tell
              > them to hang on prior to its surrender ...
              >
              > So, how much Federal Cavalry would he have had to send down Pleasant
              > Valley to break through from that direction on or after September 15?
              > Would that have been a fight worth making? Was there another route
              > to the HF Road south of Sharpsburg open to McClellan anytime before
              > September 19th? Wasn't most of the ANV between the AoP and Sharpsburg
              > from the 14th onward?
              >
              > Eric alluded to Col. "Grimes" Davis' break-out from HF (14-15 Sept)
              > and that they joined the AoP by the HF Road. Suggesting, perhaps, that
              > Pleasonton could have taken the same path, in reverse. Well ... not
              > exactly. Davis apparently took his men onto the HF Road only part of
              > the way to Sharpsburg. He then headed north and west, captured a
              > train of Longstreet's wagons near Williamsport (!) and ended up in
              > Greencastle, Pennsylvania (!!) on 15 September. He did not join the AoP.
              >
              > Ah well, I'm probably over my head here, and it's all hypothetical
              > anyway,
              >
              > Regards,
              > Brian
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Marc73@a... wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              >> gerry1952@f... writes:
              >>
              >> Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
              > do not
              >> think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.
              >>
              >> Very respectfully,
              >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the
              > years
              >> including tours and the written word.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Marc Riddell
              >>
              >> 83rd PVI
              >> 2nd USSS
              >> Potomac Legion
              >> Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
              >> _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
              >> "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • flagflop
              ... Brian, I think we ve credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind him in the
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 7, 2006
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                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@a...> wrote:
                >
                > Guys,
                >
                > I'm not arguing Eric's qualifications or reputation on cavalry
                > operations. He's the man. No discussion.
                >
                > He made a statement about McClellan picketing the Harpers Ferry Road
                > that raised a question in my mind about just how, exactly, he would
                > have been able to get his troopers there.
                >
                > I didn't want to get into a what-if discussion with Eric on the blog -
                > hardly worth his time. Perhaps this group would like to consider it:
                >
                > Look at a map and picture the relative positions of the AoP and the
                > various elements of the ANV during the period 13-19 September.
                > Remember that McC couldn't even get a courier through to HF to tell
                > them to hang on prior to its surrender ...
                >
                > So, how much Federal Cavalry would he have had to send down Pleasant
                > Valley to break through from that direction on or after September 15?
                > Would that have been a fight worth making? Was there another route
                > to the HF Road south of Sharpsburg open to McClellan anytime before
                > September 19th? Wasn't most of the ANV between the AoP and Sharpsburg
                > from the 14th onward?
                >
                > Eric alluded to Col. "Grimes" Davis' break-out from HF (14-15 Sept)
                > and that they joined the AoP by the HF Road. Suggesting, perhaps, that
                > Pleasonton could have taken the same path, in reverse. Well ... not
                > exactly. Davis apparently took his men onto the HF Road only part of
                > the way to Sharpsburg. He then headed north and west, captured a
                > train of Longstreet's wagons near Williamsport (!) and ended up in
                > Greencastle, Pennsylvania (!!) on 15 September. He did not join the AoP.
                >
                > Ah well, I'm probably over my head here, and it's all hypothetical
                > anyway,
                >
                > Regards,
                > Brian
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Marc73@a... wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > In a message dated 01/04/06 11:42:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                > > gerry1952@f... writes:
                > >
                > > Eric certainly knows his cavalry............For better or worse, I
                > do not
                > > think there is a finer scholar out there on that question.
                > >
                > > Very respectfully,
                > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > I must agree with Gerry...I have learned so much from Eric over the
                > years
                > > including tours and the written word.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Marc Riddell
                > >
                > > 83rd PVI
                > > 2nd USSS
                > > Potomac Legion
                > > Cent'l PA Rowing Association-President
                > > _http://www.rowpa.org_ (http://www.rowpa.org/)
                > > "Have You Flogged Your Crew Today?"
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >

                Brian,

                I think we've credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind him in the Pleasant Valley passes, and drawing his attention. My impression is that his men held a fairly narrow approach along the ridge line and eastern slope, but had not swept over the western slope nor established control over the road under the railroad crossing and past Salty Dog...the escape route for the Union cavalry's (Grimes Davis') night passage.

                McLaws' approach march to HF appears to me to have been in three columns--one (Kershaw-Barksdale) on Elk Ridge toward Md Hgts, one (Anderson) along South Mountain toward Sandy Point, and McLaws' main body along the floor of Pleasant Valley, the three probably coordinating their advance by signal. With the sounds of firing behind, McLaws had to divert attention to his rear guard at the passes, while at the same time pushing guns forward toward the south end of Md Hgts. It's almost as though no thought was given to the western slope or the river road below it.

                Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal unit posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying visual signal communication to the east at the very time its was most needed. (I've found no indication that signal communication was attempted between McLaws and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)

                Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!

                Dave Gaddy
              • Harry Smeltzer
                Dave, This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an adequate response: Given that SO 191 placed Jackson s command at Martinsburg and under
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 7, 2006
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                  Dave,



                  This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an adequate
                  response:



                  Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and under no
                  circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                  communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what was the
                  earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not McLaws', not
                  Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive that
                  information?



                  Harry



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of flagflop
                  Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                  Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal unit
                  posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying visual
                  signal communication to the east at the very time its was most needed. (I've
                  found no indication that signal communication was attempted between McLaws
                  and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)

                  Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!

                  Dave Gaddy













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                • Brian Downey
                  Thanks for the details Dave - I ve been thinking that more important than the control McLaws _actually_ had over the Valley, is what Gen McClellan understood
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                    Thanks for the details Dave -

                    I've been thinking that more important than the control
                    McLaws _actually_ had over the Valley, is what Gen McClellan
                    understood or believed he was up against at the time.

                    I don't know that he'd have had time to recognize his couriers weren't
                    getting through to HF. Also, going on memory, Col Davis
                    hadn't got to McClellan (if at all) til the 17th with his knowledge of
                    Confederate positions. I don't know what intel, if any,
                    McClellan had about where his enemy was between the 14th and 17th
                    aside from the aging SO191. As Eric W mentioned, McClellan doesn't
                    seem to have used his Cavalry much for scouting, at least not in
                    Pleasant Valley after breaking through Fox's on the 14th.

                    Eric had made a hypothetical (or hindsight) suggestion that McClellan
                    should have used his Cavalry to delay AP Hill in his arrival from HF
                    on the 17th. I'm thinking McClellan couldn't do that, not because he
                    didn't know how to use the arm or because he lacked resources - more
                    because it wasn't at all a practical option for him, even if he knew
                    that AP Hill would be coming and what his impact would be at
                    Sharpsburg ...

                    Brian



                    > Brian,
                    >
                    > I think we've credited McLaws with too much control over Maryland
                    Hgts/Elk Ridge prior to becoming alarmed at what was going on behind
                    him in the Pleasant Valley passes, and drawing his attention. My
                    impression is that his men held a fairly narrow approach along the
                    ridge line and eastern slope, but had not swept over the western slope
                    nor established control over the road under the railroad crossing and
                    past Salty Dog...the escape route for the Union cavalry's (Grimes
                    Davis') night passage.
                    >
                    > McLaws' approach march to HF appears to me to have been in three
                    columns--one (Kershaw-Barksdale) on Elk Ridge toward Md Hgts, one
                    (Anderson) along South Mountain toward Sandy Point, and McLaws' main
                    body along the floor of Pleasant Valley, the three probably
                    coordinating their advance by signal. With the sounds of firing
                    behind, McLaws had to divert attention to his rear guard at the
                    passes, while at the same time pushing guns forward toward the south
                    end of Md Hgts. It's almost as though no thought was given to the
                    western slope or the river road below it.
                    >
                    > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                    unit posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                    visual signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                    needed. (I've found no indication that signal communication was
                    attempted between McLaws and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                    >
                    > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                    >
                    > Dave Gaddy
                    >
                  • G E Mayers
                    Dear Brian, re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it.......
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                      Dear Brian,

                      re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill
                      would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
                      would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
                      Creek.

                      As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking Crampton's
                      Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
                      Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
                      actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
                      Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there pretty
                      much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.

                      I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
                      supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to try
                      to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
                      from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.

                      Very respectfully,
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                      and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                      to preserve it, save that of honour."
                      --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      Three questions, Gerry. How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill s? How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve at
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                        Three questions, Gerry.



                        How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill's?



                        How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve
                        at HF was a siege?



                        To where were the telegraph lines from HF operating?



                        Harry



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of G E Mayers
                        Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:51 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                        Dear Brian,

                        re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP Hill
                        would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
                        would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
                        Creek.

                        As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking Crampton's

                        Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
                        Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
                        actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
                        Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there pretty
                        much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.

                        I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
                        supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to try
                        to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
                        from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.

                        Very respectfully,
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                        and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                        to preserve it, save that of honour."
                        --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860










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                      • G E Mayers
                        Good questions Harry! 1. IIRC, Hill s force was ID d by the US Signals from their signal station closest to Burnside due to their having very high quality
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                          Good questions Harry!

                          1. IIRC, Hill's force was ID'd by the US Signals from their signal station
                          closest to Burnside due to their having very high quality optics and also, I
                          would imagine they saw the column marching up the HF Ferry Road flying
                          Virginia and Confederate flags. (Will have to check sources on that one!)

                          2. Will have to check sources on this one, but IIRC, he was so informed by
                          Halleck. (Maybe Tom Clemens can help with this one as well as Question 1.)

                          3. Let me check sources including Harsh TATF on this. (Another good Tom
                          Clemens question!)

                          Very respectfully,
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                          and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                          to preserve it, save that of honour."
                          --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:13 PM
                          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign


                          > Three questions, Gerry.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > How did the US Signal Corps identify the force as Hill's?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > How did McClellan learn or indicate that what he was attempting to relieve
                          > at HF was a siege?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To where were the telegraph lines from HF operating?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Harry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                          > On
                          > Behalf Of G E Mayers
                          > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:51 PM
                          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear Brian,
                          >
                          > re Mac and AP Hill......Burnside was warned by US Signal Corps that AP
                          > Hill
                          > would be soon engaging his left...but did nothing about it....... Cavalry
                          > would have run into Munford, IIRC, who was posted down towards Antietam
                          > Creek.
                          >
                          > As for Pleasant Valley, Franklin debouched into there from taking
                          > Crampton's
                          >
                          > Gap. Fox's Gap was the key to controlling Turner's Gap, but the stiff
                          > Confederate resistance made the Federal IX Corps not realize they had
                          > actually taken the Gap....until too late. Turner's Gap was attacked by the
                          > Federal I Corps and the very very stiff Confederate resistance there
                          > pretty
                          > much held off a Federal breakthrough on that front.
                          >
                          > I believe Mac knew something was up with HF because, again IIRC, he was
                          > supposed to signal with cannon when he approached close enough to HF to
                          > try
                          > to relieve the Siege there. Again, IIRC, the telegraph lines operating out
                          > from HF were still open until very late in the Siege.
                          >
                          > Very respectfully,
                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                          > and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                          > to preserve it, save that of honour."
                          > --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860
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                        • Thomas Clemens
                          A dispatch rider from HF got to McClellan and notified him of the situation. I can look up the exact day & time if you need it, it is in Carman. Mac was
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            A dispatch rider from HF got to McClellan and notified him of the
                            situation. I can look up the exact day & time if you need it, it is in
                            Carman. Mac was very much trying to break through and relieve the
                            siege, and Halleck discussed it with him, adding it to his mission. The
                            telegraph line to DC, and everywhere else, were cut by the 13th.

                            The signal dispatch warning of Hill's approach is in the OR IIRC, but
                            there is no evidence it reached Burnside in time to react to it. I
                            don't think it mentions Hill by name, and the Viriginia flags is a myth,
                            the only VA units in the light Division were in Field's brigade, and
                            they were at the end of the column. Gregg's SC brigade was first, and
                            the NC artillery officer who saw the flag with his telescope probably
                            confused it for a VA flag.

                            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            Professor of History
                            Hagerstown Community College


                            >>> hjs21@... 01/08/06 3:13 PM >>>
                          • Teej Smith
                            Tom Clemens wrote: Gregg s SC brigade was first, and ... Yeah, well you know how it is, all those Mountain of Conceit flags look pretty much the same to
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                              Tom Clemens wrote:

                              <snip>

                              Gregg's SC brigade was first, and
                              > the NC artillery officer who saw the flag with his telescope probably
                              > confused it for a VA flag.

                              Yeah, well you know how it is, all those Mountain of Conceit flags look
                              pretty much the same to North Carolinians. :-)

                              Regards,
                              Teej
                            • Thomas Clemens
                              Yes, many state had blue flags with a state seal or symbol that looked alike from a distance. Even Maryland had one like that, unlike the ugly flag we have
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                                Yes, many state had blue flags with a state seal or symbol that looked
                                alike from a distance. Even Maryland had one like that, unlike the ugly
                                flag we have now.

                                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                Professor of History
                                Hagerstown Community College


                                >>> teej@... 01/08/06 6:29 PM >>>
                              • flagflop
                                Harry, In Ed Fishel s 1996 Secret War for the Union, (p. 234), Fishel wrestled with the basis for Mac s (erroneous) conclusion that Jackson had arrived on
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
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                                  Harry,
                                  In Ed Fishel's 1996 "Secret War for the Union," (p. 234), Fishel
                                  wrestled with the basis for Mac's (erroneous) conclusion that
                                  Jackson had arrived on the field at Sharpsburg on 15 Sep. He
                                  suggested that it may have been due simply to Mac's hearing the
                                  cheers at Sharpsburg (over news of the fall of HF), mis-interpreting
                                  that as arrival of major reenforcement, asking himself (based on SO
                                  191) which force that would likely be, and assuming Jackson...for
                                  Jackson was not concerned with HF, but Martinsburg, and thus most
                                  likely to have finished his task and rejoined Lee. Fishel describes
                                  this as "Of all the erroneous conclusions about enemy movements and
                                  positions that McClellan made after acquiring Lee's order, this one
                                  was the most damaging." I tend to agree with that: in other words,
                                  Mac accepted that (per SO 191) the reduction of HF was the primary
                                  task of McLaws' guns on Md Hgts, with a modest assist from Walker to
                                  block down-stream exit. He was unaware of Jackson's arrival there to
                                  invest the post and the delay in SO 191's time-table.
                                  Dave Gaddy


                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dave,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an
                                  adequate
                                  > response:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and
                                  under no
                                  > circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                                  > communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what
                                  was the
                                  > earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not
                                  McLaws', not
                                  > Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive
                                  that
                                  > information?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Harry
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of flagflop
                                  > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                                  unit
                                  > posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                                  visual
                                  > signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                                  needed. (I've
                                  > found no indication that signal communication was attempted
                                  between McLaws
                                  > and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                                  >
                                  > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                                  >
                                  > Dave Gaddy
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                                • Harry Smeltzer
                                  An erroneous conclusion to be sure, but also understandable given the contents of SO 191. ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 8, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    An erroneous conclusion to be sure, but also understandable given the
                                    contents of SO 191.



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of flagflop
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:09 PM
                                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign



                                    Harry,
                                    In Ed Fishel's 1996 "Secret War for the Union," (p. 234), Fishel
                                    wrestled with the basis for Mac's (erroneous) conclusion that
                                    Jackson had arrived on the field at Sharpsburg on 15 Sep. He
                                    suggested that it may have been due simply to Mac's hearing the
                                    cheers at Sharpsburg (over news of the fall of HF), mis-interpreting
                                    that as arrival of major reenforcement, asking himself (based on SO
                                    191) which force that would likely be, and assuming Jackson...for
                                    Jackson was not concerned with HF, but Martinsburg, and thus most
                                    likely to have finished his task and rejoined Lee. Fishel describes
                                    this as "Of all the erroneous conclusions about enemy movements and
                                    positions that McClellan made after acquiring Lee's order, this one
                                    was the most damaging." I tend to agree with that: in other words,
                                    Mac accepted that (per SO 191) the reduction of HF was the primary
                                    task of McLaws' guns on Md Hgts, with a modest assist from Walker to
                                    block down-stream exit. He was unaware of Jackson's arrival there to
                                    invest the post and the delay in SO 191's time-table.
                                    Dave Gaddy


                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dave,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > This leads me to ask a question to which I have never received an
                                    adequate
                                    > response:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Given that SO 191 placed Jackson's command at Martinsburg and
                                    under no
                                    > circumstance directed him to Harper's Ferry, and given the lack of
                                    > communication between HF and McClellan as you have described, what
                                    was the
                                    > earliest McClellan could have been aware of Jackson's - not
                                    McLaws', not
                                    > Walker's, but Jackson's - presence at HF, and how did he receive
                                    that
                                    > information?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Harry
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > Behalf Of flagflop
                                    > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:51 PM
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: AoP Cavalry on Maryland Campaign
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Mac had no telegraphic communication with HF, and the small signal
                                    unit
                                    > posted on Md Hgts withdrew ("on their own"), effectively denying
                                    visual
                                    > signal communication to the east at the very time its was most
                                    needed. (I've
                                    > found no indication that signal communication was attempted
                                    between McLaws
                                    > and D.H. Hill, Longstreet, or GHQ either.)
                                    >
                                    > Maybe I should save this for "Harpers Ferry on the Web"!
                                    >
                                    > Dave Gaddy
                                    >
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