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Re: [TalkAntietam] bibliography

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  • rotbaron@aol.com
    In a message dated 9/23/05 8:56:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nickrelee@aol.com writes: 5-Antietam, cornfield 6-Antietam, sunken road 7-Antietam, burnside s
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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      In a message dated 9/23/05 8:56:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      nickrelee@... writes:
      5-Antietam, cornfield
      6-Antietam, sunken road
      7-Antietam, burnside's bridge
      I would recommend West Woods as another portion of the battle. Plenty of
      ground and action beyond the Cornfield.

      Tom Shay


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Brian Downey
      Hi Nick, You might also find Antietam on the Web (http://aotw.org) a useful resource for maps, bios, drill-down orders of battle, further references, etc - if
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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        Hi Nick,

        You might also find Antietam on the Web (http://aotw.org) a useful
        resource for maps, bios, drill-down orders of battle, further
        references, etc - if you'll forgive the shameless self-promotion.

        Tom Shay's absolutely right about the Carman-Cope maps, of course, but
        you can get them for free online from the Library of Congress,
        including that fabulous zooming viewer. I've used my digital set a lot.

        Rather then the middle or southern sections, I'd think the northern
        portion of the field could easily take two meetings, if one had the
        time. Somewhat more complex action and broader scope there, it seems
        to me.

        For references, it's always good to return to the ORs also. These are
        available online in a couple of places, if you don't already have
        access locally. I've posted the 315 after-action reports which refer
        to the Maryland Campaign on AotW also :).

        I, too, hunger for a complete Carman manuscript, but that'll have to
        wait til Dr Clemens publishes or I get the time at the Library of
        Congress it'll take to xerox the thing. If they'll let me.

        Regards,
        Brian

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, nickrelee@a... wrote:
        >
        > Tom,
        > I do have a copy of Sid Meier's but when I made a chart of the
        chapters as
        > saved on the disk (because the disk sometimes gave them a different
        number) it
        > appears that the disk is missing chapters 1-5,14 and anything past
        21, which
        > may not even exist. Maybe I'm not looking thru the disk correctly.
        >
        > Speaking for myself I'd say the more the merrier on the trip. We
        just got
        > back from this year's trip on Monday (middle tennessee - franklin,
        nashville,
        > spring hill, stones river) so I'm not even sure when we'll start
        Antietam.
        > We just had decided earlier this year that Antietam was next.
        Right now I'm
        > gathering maps, order of battle, biographies (from Warners 2 books)
        to make a
        > binder for us to use. I'm not sure if we'll start before Christmas
        or not,
        > anyway to shorten the story, I think we'll be happy to have others
        join us.
        > My guess is we'll go in August-October.
        >
        > Maybe you (or anyone else) can give some opinion on how to break up
        the
        > study. My idea was:
        > 1-Second Manassas
        > 2-the march north
        > 3-Harper's Ferry
        > 4-South Mountain
        > 5-Antietam, cornfield
        > 6-Antietam, sunken road
        > 7-Antietam, burnside's bridge
        > 8-return to Virginia
        > Under that setup, if our first meeting was in January then we'd be
        done in
        > August and the trip could be Aug, Sept or Oct. We meet for about 1
        to 1.5
        > hours each month so I was wondering if maybe Antietam should be
        broken into
        > maybe 5 meetings. Do it as Hooker/Mansfield assault, Sumner into
        the woods,
        > sunken road and burnside's bridge. That'd be 4 and the fifth could
        either be 2
        > on the sunken road or AP Hill's attack. Do you think there is
        enough stuff
        > happening that devoting 2 meetings to either the middle or southern
        areas would
        > be worthwhile? Does all that make sense?
        >
        > --Nick K
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • nickrelee@aol.com
        I ve visited the aotw.org site before, its pretty good. I think I will order that CD because one of our members manages a kinkos production facility and he
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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          I've visited the aotw.org site before, its pretty good. I think I will
          order that CD because one of our members manages a kinkos production facility and
          he can make nice print outs, laminated if need be, etc. I did see them
          online but the CD is probably the way to go.

          So its sounding like we should definetly do 2 meetings on the northern areas
          of the battlefield, any thoughts on the sunken road and burnside's bridge?

          --Nick



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Thomas Clemens
          Nick, It wasn t important to identify the author, soI didn t :-) I have not read Teetor s book, waiting for Dennis Frye s. Kagel is worth reading, and IIRC,
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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            Nick,
            It wasn't important to identify the author, soI didn't :-)
            I have not read Teetor's book, waiting for Dennis Frye's. Kagel is
            worth reading, and IIRC, there were so many bad reviews of the other
            book that I didn't read it either. I am away from home right now so I
            cannot put my hands on things to jog memory. As for the Carman
            manuscript & Sid Mier, Joe Harsh typed most of the manuscript. What is
            in the LOC is handwritten and very difficult to read. He sold that to
            Sid, which helped fund his research for TAF, etc. Mier only wanted the
            battle chapters so he ignored the chapters you mention, all the way
            through Chap. 29.
            I have done a lot of work editing the first seven or so, but when I got
            to the battle chapters I discovered Carman was leaning heavily on the
            OR's, but also on letters and interviews with veterans who returned to
            the field. Frequently he copies these works word-for-word, but often
            without citations. Because I am trying to find out HOW Carman came to
            know what he wrote, and how accurate it is, I needed to get the letters
            organized. That is proving a mammoth undertaking.
            The letters are scattered, some in the Nat'l. Archives, some in the NY
            Public Lib, some in the New Jersey Historical Society, and he had access
            to some of the Gould Papers. So far I have collected about 6-700 hard
            copies of letters, maps, notes by Carman, etc, from these repositories
            and put them in folders by brigade, etc. I am now going through the NA
            microfilm to see what else exists, and it is a lot. Likely over 600
            more entries, maybe more. When I can assemble all of that, then I can
            compare what Carman wrote to what sources he used. Essentially I am
            just compiling one H*** of a lot of footnotes and a bibliography.
            He is usually as accurate as any later study, but there are times when
            he is wrong, such as believing John Walker's B&L account, but he is far
            more often correct. Maddeninly, there are time when there appears to be
            no source at all for some of his stories, such as Lee's viewing the
            field from the east ridge of the Antietam on Sept. 15 a.m. He must have
            gotten it from someone, but who? No clue so far.
            There are, BTW, some great stories and anecdotes in the letters. Don't
            look for my work being published anytime soon.
            Tom C

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College


            >>> nickrelee@... 09/23/05 8:47 PM >>>
          • nickrelee@aol.com
            Good luck with that, you really have an ambitious project there. I ve read Kegel but not the other two and thought I d ask a better source before I tackled
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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              Good luck with that, you really have an ambitious project there.

              I've read Kegel but not the other two and thought I'd ask a better source
              before I tackled those myself.

              --Nick


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stephen Recker
              I m trying to find any sites specific to the 1st Minnesota at Antietam, especially the stone wall that they took a position at near the Poffenberger farm. I m
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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                I'm trying to find any sites specific to the 1st Minnesota at Antietam,
                especially the stone wall that they took a position at near the
                Poffenberger farm. I'm guessing that it got flattened when Rt. 65
                Bypass was put in, but am not sure. If anyone has hints I'd love to
                hear them Thanks.

                Stephen Recker
              • Steve
                ... was you ... of books not ... Palmer s is a truly dreadful book. His main thesis is that Robert E. Lee exceeded his authority by raiding into the North
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, nickrelee@a... wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  > I found the article, you were kinda sly in not mentioning that it
                  was you
                  > that wrote that article. I was wondering your opinion of a couple
                  of books not
                  > mentioned in your article.
                  > A Matter of Hours by Paul Teetor
                  > Lee Moves North by Michael Palmer
                  > North with Lee and Jackson by James Kegel

                  Palmer's is a truly dreadful book. His main thesis is that Robert E.
                  Lee "exceeded his authority" by raiding into the North twice without
                  the approval of Jefferson Davis, possibly entertaining political
                  ambitions of his own. Palmer conveniently ignores the fact that Davis
                  *was* consulted both times, and that both raids had Davis' approval.
                  The book is historical revisionism at its absolute worst and
                  literally not worth the paper it's printed on.

                  On the other hand, Kegel's book is *excellent* (one of my favorites,
                  in fact), containing extensive footnotes and lots of interesting
                  minutiae. It's not strictly an "Antietam" book, though, but it does
                  show the "flow" of the early war period (how each battle was actually
                  an outgrowth of its predecessor).

                  Just my $0.02

                  -- Steve Lopez
                • historygirl@adelphia.net
                  Steve, There is a stone wall west of the bypass on Lynn Flook s farm which is supposedly that wall. It seems a little too far north to me, but haven t looked
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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                    Steve,
                    There is a stone wall west of the bypass on Lynn Flook's farm which is supposedly that wall. It seems a little too far north to me, but haven't looked at it closely. I think Jay Luvaas identified it as the wall. Maybe it extended farther south and east before the bypass was put in.
                    Tom Clemens




                    ---- Stephen Recker wrote:

                    =============
                    I'm trying to find any sites specific to the 1st Minnesota at Antietam,
                    especially the stone wall that they took a position at near the
                    Poffenberger farm. I'm guessing that it got flattened when Rt. 65
                    Bypass was put in, but am not sure. If anyone has hints I'd love to
                    hear them Thanks.

                    Stephen Recker






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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • G E Mayers
                    Dear Nick, As another person somewhat knowledgeable about the Battle of Sharpsburg and in particular about the Sunken Road fight, I might possibly be able to
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 25, 2005
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                      Dear Nick,

                      As another person somewhat knowledgeable about the Battle of Sharpsburg and
                      in particular about the Sunken Road fight, I might possibly be able to be of
                      assistance...depending on when your group makes its trip.

                      Very respectfully,
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                      and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                      to preserve it, save that of honour."
                      --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <nickrelee@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:37 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] bibliography


                      >
                      > Tom,
                      > I do have a copy of Sid Meier's but when I made a chart of the chapters as
                      > saved on the disk (because the disk sometimes gave them a different
                      > number) it
                      > appears that the disk is missing chapters 1-5,14 and anything past 21,
                      > which
                      > may not even exist. Maybe I'm not looking thru the disk correctly.
                      >
                      > Speaking for myself I'd say the more the merrier on the trip. We just
                      > got
                      > back from this year's trip on Monday (middle tennessee - franklin,
                      > nashville,
                      > spring hill, stones river) so I'm not even sure when we'll start
                      > Antietam.
                      > We just had decided earlier this year that Antietam was next. Right now
                      > I'm
                      > gathering maps, order of battle, biographies (from Warners 2 books) to
                      > make a
                      > binder for us to use. I'm not sure if we'll start before Christmas or
                      > not,
                      > anyway to shorten the story, I think we'll be happy to have others join
                      > us.
                      > My guess is we'll go in August-October.
                      >
                      > Maybe you (or anyone else) can give some opinion on how to break up the
                      > study. My idea was:
                      > 1-Second Manassas
                      > 2-the march north
                      > 3-Harper's Ferry
                      > 4-South Mountain
                      > 5-Antietam, cornfield
                      > 6-Antietam, sunken road
                      > 7-Antietam, burnside's bridge
                      > 8-return to Virginia
                      > Under that setup, if our first meeting was in January then we'd be done in
                      > August and the trip could be Aug, Sept or Oct. We meet for about 1 to 1.5
                      > hours each month so I was wondering if maybe Antietam should be broken
                      > into
                      > maybe 5 meetings. Do it as Hooker/Mansfield assault, Sumner into the
                      > woods,
                      > sunken road and burnside's bridge. That'd be 4 and the fifth could
                      > either be 2
                      > on the sunken road or AP Hill's attack. Do you think there is enough
                      > stuff
                      > happening that devoting 2 meetings to either the middle or southern areas
                      > would
                      > be worthwhile? Does all that make sense?
                      >
                      > --Nick K
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SPONSORED LINKS American civil war Civil war history Civil war
                      > American civil war book American civil war art Civil war battles
                      >
                      >
                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                      >
                      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      >
                      >
                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                    • nickrelee@aol.com
                      I ll keep you posted. Sounds like we ll have a wealth of knowledgable people wanting to join along, sounds good to me. --Nick [Non-text portions of this
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 25, 2005
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                        I'll keep you posted. Sounds like we'll have a wealth of knowledgable
                        people wanting to join along, sounds good to me.
                        --Nick


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Stephen Recker
                        I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from 2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name please contact me by
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                          I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from
                          2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name
                          please contact me by private email. Thanks.

                          Stephen Recker
                          Director, Antietam Tours

                          P.O. Box 705
                          Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                          240-217-3664
                          800-417-9596

                          http://www.virtualantietam.com
                          http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                          http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com
                        • G E Mayers
                          Stephen; When do you plan the next phase of initial tests for possible Antietam Tour Guides? Very respectfully, G E Gerry Mayers As an American citizen I
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                            Stephen;

                            When do you plan the next phase of initial tests for possible Antietam Tour
                            Guides?

                            Very respectfully,
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                            and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                            to preserve it, save that of honour."
                            --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:30 PM
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] OT - Manassas guides needed


                            >I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from
                            > 2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name
                            > please contact me by private email. Thanks.
                            >
                            > Stephen Recker
                            > Director, Antietam Tours
                            >
                            > P.O. Box 705
                            > Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                            > 240-217-3664
                            > 800-417-9596
                            >
                            > http://www.virtualantietam.com
                            > http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                            > http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > SPONSORED LINKS American civil war Civil war history Civil war
                            > American civil war book American civil war art Civil war battles
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                            >
                            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                          • Thomas Clemens
                            Can t help, my daughter is getting married that day. Would like to talk wit hyou about SHAF s website when convenient. ... I just got a call from a woman who
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                              Can't help, my daughter is getting married that day. Would like to talk
                              wit hyou about SHAF's website when convenient.

                              >>> recker@... 10/5/2005 2:30:03 PM >>>
                              I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from

                              2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name
                              please contact me by private email. Thanks.

                              Stephen Recker
                              Director, Antietam Tours

                              P.O. Box 705
                              Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                              240-217-3664
                              800-417-9596

                              http://www.virtualantietam.com
                              http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                              http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com








                              SPONSORED LINKS
                              American civil war Civil war history Civil war American civil war book
                              American civil war art Civil war battles
                              YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                              Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • G E Mayers
                              Stephen, I would suggest you contact Dick Weeks directly. He is very knowledgeable about the field. Very respectfully, G E Gerry Mayers As an American
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                Stephen,

                                I would suggest you contact Dick Weeks directly. He is very knowledgeable
                                about the field.

                                Very respectfully,
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                                and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                                to preserve it, save that of honour."
                                --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:30 PM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] OT - Manassas guides needed


                                >I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from
                                > 2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name
                                > please contact me by private email. Thanks.
                                >
                                > Stephen Recker
                                > Director, Antietam Tours
                                >
                                > P.O. Box 705
                                > Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                                > 240-217-3664
                                > 800-417-9596
                                >
                                > http://www.virtualantietam.com
                                > http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                                > http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > SPONSORED LINKS American civil war Civil war history Civil war
                                > American civil war book American civil war art Civil war battles
                                >
                                >
                                > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                >
                                > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                                >
                                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                >
                                >
                                > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                              • Stephen Recker
                                Gerry, Thanks for the question. Tests are being given on an as-needed basis. Anyone who is interested in taking the test to be a guide at Antietam National
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                  Gerry,

                                  Thanks for the question. Tests are being given on an as-needed basis.
                                  Anyone who is interested in taking the test to be a guide at Antietam
                                  National Battlefield should contact me directly and we'll get you
                                  signed up. Thanks.

                                  Regards,
                                  Stephen Recker
                                  Director, Antietam Tours

                                  P.O. Box 705
                                  Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                                  240-217-3664
                                  800-417-9596

                                  http://www.virtualantietam.com
                                  http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                                  http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com


                                  On Wednesday, October 5, 2005, at 02:32 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                  > Stephen;
                                  >
                                  > When do you plan the next phase of initial tests for possible
                                  > Antietam Tour
                                  > Guides?
                                  >
                                  > Very respectfully,
                                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
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