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Re: [TalkAntietam] bibliography

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  • nickrelee@aol.com
    Tom, I do have a copy of Sid Meier s but when I made a chart of the chapters as saved on the disk (because the disk sometimes gave them a different number) it
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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      Tom,
      I do have a copy of Sid Meier's but when I made a chart of the chapters as
      saved on the disk (because the disk sometimes gave them a different number) it
      appears that the disk is missing chapters 1-5,14 and anything past 21, which
      may not even exist. Maybe I'm not looking thru the disk correctly.

      Speaking for myself I'd say the more the merrier on the trip. We just got
      back from this year's trip on Monday (middle tennessee - franklin, nashville,
      spring hill, stones river) so I'm not even sure when we'll start Antietam.
      We just had decided earlier this year that Antietam was next. Right now I'm
      gathering maps, order of battle, biographies (from Warners 2 books) to make a
      binder for us to use. I'm not sure if we'll start before Christmas or not,
      anyway to shorten the story, I think we'll be happy to have others join us.
      My guess is we'll go in August-October.

      Maybe you (or anyone else) can give some opinion on how to break up the
      study. My idea was:
      1-Second Manassas
      2-the march north
      3-Harper's Ferry
      4-South Mountain
      5-Antietam, cornfield
      6-Antietam, sunken road
      7-Antietam, burnside's bridge
      8-return to Virginia
      Under that setup, if our first meeting was in January then we'd be done in
      August and the trip could be Aug, Sept or Oct. We meet for about 1 to 1.5
      hours each month so I was wondering if maybe Antietam should be broken into
      maybe 5 meetings. Do it as Hooker/Mansfield assault, Sumner into the woods,
      sunken road and burnside's bridge. That'd be 4 and the fifth could either be 2
      on the sunken road or AP Hill's attack. Do you think there is enough stuff
      happening that devoting 2 meetings to either the middle or southern areas would
      be worthwhile? Does all that make sense?

      --Nick K



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nickrelee@aol.com
      Tom, I found the article, you were kinda sly in not mentioning that it was you that wrote that article. I was wondering your opinion of a couple of books not
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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        Tom,
        I found the article, you were kinda sly in not mentioning that it was you
        that wrote that article. I was wondering your opinion of a couple of books not
        mentioned in your article.
        A Matter of Hours by Paul Teetor
        Lee Moves North by Michael Palmer
        North with Lee and Jackson by James Kegel

        Also how is your edition of Carman's manuscript faring?
        --Nick



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rotbaron@aol.com
        I would also recommend (actually require) that a detailed tactical study of the battle use the Carman maps. They are available on CD-ROM from the Park Book
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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          I would also recommend (actually require) that a detailed tactical study of
          the battle use the Carman maps. They are available on CD-ROM from the Park Book
          Storeat at a cheap price. Just be aware your color cartridges will be
          exhausted if you start printing sections of those maps. The software is great for
          zooming in to a particular action and printing the unit positions. I can provide
          samples if needed.

          Tom Shay


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • rotbaron@aol.com
          In a message dated 9/23/05 8:56:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nickrelee@aol.com writes: 5-Antietam, cornfield 6-Antietam, sunken road 7-Antietam, burnside s
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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            In a message dated 9/23/05 8:56:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
            nickrelee@... writes:
            5-Antietam, cornfield
            6-Antietam, sunken road
            7-Antietam, burnside's bridge
            I would recommend West Woods as another portion of the battle. Plenty of
            ground and action beyond the Cornfield.

            Tom Shay


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brian Downey
            Hi Nick, You might also find Antietam on the Web (http://aotw.org) a useful resource for maps, bios, drill-down orders of battle, further references, etc - if
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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              Hi Nick,

              You might also find Antietam on the Web (http://aotw.org) a useful
              resource for maps, bios, drill-down orders of battle, further
              references, etc - if you'll forgive the shameless self-promotion.

              Tom Shay's absolutely right about the Carman-Cope maps, of course, but
              you can get them for free online from the Library of Congress,
              including that fabulous zooming viewer. I've used my digital set a lot.

              Rather then the middle or southern sections, I'd think the northern
              portion of the field could easily take two meetings, if one had the
              time. Somewhat more complex action and broader scope there, it seems
              to me.

              For references, it's always good to return to the ORs also. These are
              available online in a couple of places, if you don't already have
              access locally. I've posted the 315 after-action reports which refer
              to the Maryland Campaign on AotW also :).

              I, too, hunger for a complete Carman manuscript, but that'll have to
              wait til Dr Clemens publishes or I get the time at the Library of
              Congress it'll take to xerox the thing. If they'll let me.

              Regards,
              Brian

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, nickrelee@a... wrote:
              >
              > Tom,
              > I do have a copy of Sid Meier's but when I made a chart of the
              chapters as
              > saved on the disk (because the disk sometimes gave them a different
              number) it
              > appears that the disk is missing chapters 1-5,14 and anything past
              21, which
              > may not even exist. Maybe I'm not looking thru the disk correctly.
              >
              > Speaking for myself I'd say the more the merrier on the trip. We
              just got
              > back from this year's trip on Monday (middle tennessee - franklin,
              nashville,
              > spring hill, stones river) so I'm not even sure when we'll start
              Antietam.
              > We just had decided earlier this year that Antietam was next.
              Right now I'm
              > gathering maps, order of battle, biographies (from Warners 2 books)
              to make a
              > binder for us to use. I'm not sure if we'll start before Christmas
              or not,
              > anyway to shorten the story, I think we'll be happy to have others
              join us.
              > My guess is we'll go in August-October.
              >
              > Maybe you (or anyone else) can give some opinion on how to break up
              the
              > study. My idea was:
              > 1-Second Manassas
              > 2-the march north
              > 3-Harper's Ferry
              > 4-South Mountain
              > 5-Antietam, cornfield
              > 6-Antietam, sunken road
              > 7-Antietam, burnside's bridge
              > 8-return to Virginia
              > Under that setup, if our first meeting was in January then we'd be
              done in
              > August and the trip could be Aug, Sept or Oct. We meet for about 1
              to 1.5
              > hours each month so I was wondering if maybe Antietam should be
              broken into
              > maybe 5 meetings. Do it as Hooker/Mansfield assault, Sumner into
              the woods,
              > sunken road and burnside's bridge. That'd be 4 and the fifth could
              either be 2
              > on the sunken road or AP Hill's attack. Do you think there is
              enough stuff
              > happening that devoting 2 meetings to either the middle or southern
              areas would
              > be worthwhile? Does all that make sense?
              >
              > --Nick K
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • nickrelee@aol.com
              I ve visited the aotw.org site before, its pretty good. I think I will order that CD because one of our members manages a kinkos production facility and he
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 23, 2005
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                I've visited the aotw.org site before, its pretty good. I think I will
                order that CD because one of our members manages a kinkos production facility and
                he can make nice print outs, laminated if need be, etc. I did see them
                online but the CD is probably the way to go.

                So its sounding like we should definetly do 2 meetings on the northern areas
                of the battlefield, any thoughts on the sunken road and burnside's bridge?

                --Nick



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Thomas Clemens
                Nick, It wasn t important to identify the author, soI didn t :-) I have not read Teetor s book, waiting for Dennis Frye s. Kagel is worth reading, and IIRC,
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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                  Nick,
                  It wasn't important to identify the author, soI didn't :-)
                  I have not read Teetor's book, waiting for Dennis Frye's. Kagel is
                  worth reading, and IIRC, there were so many bad reviews of the other
                  book that I didn't read it either. I am away from home right now so I
                  cannot put my hands on things to jog memory. As for the Carman
                  manuscript & Sid Mier, Joe Harsh typed most of the manuscript. What is
                  in the LOC is handwritten and very difficult to read. He sold that to
                  Sid, which helped fund his research for TAF, etc. Mier only wanted the
                  battle chapters so he ignored the chapters you mention, all the way
                  through Chap. 29.
                  I have done a lot of work editing the first seven or so, but when I got
                  to the battle chapters I discovered Carman was leaning heavily on the
                  OR's, but also on letters and interviews with veterans who returned to
                  the field. Frequently he copies these works word-for-word, but often
                  without citations. Because I am trying to find out HOW Carman came to
                  know what he wrote, and how accurate it is, I needed to get the letters
                  organized. That is proving a mammoth undertaking.
                  The letters are scattered, some in the Nat'l. Archives, some in the NY
                  Public Lib, some in the New Jersey Historical Society, and he had access
                  to some of the Gould Papers. So far I have collected about 6-700 hard
                  copies of letters, maps, notes by Carman, etc, from these repositories
                  and put them in folders by brigade, etc. I am now going through the NA
                  microfilm to see what else exists, and it is a lot. Likely over 600
                  more entries, maybe more. When I can assemble all of that, then I can
                  compare what Carman wrote to what sources he used. Essentially I am
                  just compiling one H*** of a lot of footnotes and a bibliography.
                  He is usually as accurate as any later study, but there are times when
                  he is wrong, such as believing John Walker's B&L account, but he is far
                  more often correct. Maddeninly, there are time when there appears to be
                  no source at all for some of his stories, such as Lee's viewing the
                  field from the east ridge of the Antietam on Sept. 15 a.m. He must have
                  gotten it from someone, but who? No clue so far.
                  There are, BTW, some great stories and anecdotes in the letters. Don't
                  look for my work being published anytime soon.
                  Tom C

                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> nickrelee@... 09/23/05 8:47 PM >>>
                • nickrelee@aol.com
                  Good luck with that, you really have an ambitious project there. I ve read Kegel but not the other two and thought I d ask a better source before I tackled
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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                    Good luck with that, you really have an ambitious project there.

                    I've read Kegel but not the other two and thought I'd ask a better source
                    before I tackled those myself.

                    --Nick


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stephen Recker
                    I m trying to find any sites specific to the 1st Minnesota at Antietam, especially the stone wall that they took a position at near the Poffenberger farm. I m
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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                      I'm trying to find any sites specific to the 1st Minnesota at Antietam,
                      especially the stone wall that they took a position at near the
                      Poffenberger farm. I'm guessing that it got flattened when Rt. 65
                      Bypass was put in, but am not sure. If anyone has hints I'd love to
                      hear them Thanks.

                      Stephen Recker
                    • Steve
                      ... was you ... of books not ... Palmer s is a truly dreadful book. His main thesis is that Robert E. Lee exceeded his authority by raiding into the North
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, nickrelee@a... wrote:
                        >
                        > Tom,
                        > I found the article, you were kinda sly in not mentioning that it
                        was you
                        > that wrote that article. I was wondering your opinion of a couple
                        of books not
                        > mentioned in your article.
                        > A Matter of Hours by Paul Teetor
                        > Lee Moves North by Michael Palmer
                        > North with Lee and Jackson by James Kegel

                        Palmer's is a truly dreadful book. His main thesis is that Robert E.
                        Lee "exceeded his authority" by raiding into the North twice without
                        the approval of Jefferson Davis, possibly entertaining political
                        ambitions of his own. Palmer conveniently ignores the fact that Davis
                        *was* consulted both times, and that both raids had Davis' approval.
                        The book is historical revisionism at its absolute worst and
                        literally not worth the paper it's printed on.

                        On the other hand, Kegel's book is *excellent* (one of my favorites,
                        in fact), containing extensive footnotes and lots of interesting
                        minutiae. It's not strictly an "Antietam" book, though, but it does
                        show the "flow" of the early war period (how each battle was actually
                        an outgrowth of its predecessor).

                        Just my $0.02

                        -- Steve Lopez
                      • historygirl@adelphia.net
                        Steve, There is a stone wall west of the bypass on Lynn Flook s farm which is supposedly that wall. It seems a little too far north to me, but haven t looked
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 24, 2005
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                          Steve,
                          There is a stone wall west of the bypass on Lynn Flook's farm which is supposedly that wall. It seems a little too far north to me, but haven't looked at it closely. I think Jay Luvaas identified it as the wall. Maybe it extended farther south and east before the bypass was put in.
                          Tom Clemens




                          ---- Stephen Recker wrote:

                          =============
                          I'm trying to find any sites specific to the 1st Minnesota at Antietam,
                          especially the stone wall that they took a position at near the
                          Poffenberger farm. I'm guessing that it got flattened when Rt. 65
                          Bypass was put in, but am not sure. If anyone has hints I'd love to
                          hear them Thanks.

                          Stephen Recker






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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • G E Mayers
                          Dear Nick, As another person somewhat knowledgeable about the Battle of Sharpsburg and in particular about the Sunken Road fight, I might possibly be able to
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 25, 2005
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                            Dear Nick,

                            As another person somewhat knowledgeable about the Battle of Sharpsburg and
                            in particular about the Sunken Road fight, I might possibly be able to be of
                            assistance...depending on when your group makes its trip.

                            Very respectfully,
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                            and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                            to preserve it, save that of honour."
                            --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <nickrelee@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:37 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] bibliography


                            >
                            > Tom,
                            > I do have a copy of Sid Meier's but when I made a chart of the chapters as
                            > saved on the disk (because the disk sometimes gave them a different
                            > number) it
                            > appears that the disk is missing chapters 1-5,14 and anything past 21,
                            > which
                            > may not even exist. Maybe I'm not looking thru the disk correctly.
                            >
                            > Speaking for myself I'd say the more the merrier on the trip. We just
                            > got
                            > back from this year's trip on Monday (middle tennessee - franklin,
                            > nashville,
                            > spring hill, stones river) so I'm not even sure when we'll start
                            > Antietam.
                            > We just had decided earlier this year that Antietam was next. Right now
                            > I'm
                            > gathering maps, order of battle, biographies (from Warners 2 books) to
                            > make a
                            > binder for us to use. I'm not sure if we'll start before Christmas or
                            > not,
                            > anyway to shorten the story, I think we'll be happy to have others join
                            > us.
                            > My guess is we'll go in August-October.
                            >
                            > Maybe you (or anyone else) can give some opinion on how to break up the
                            > study. My idea was:
                            > 1-Second Manassas
                            > 2-the march north
                            > 3-Harper's Ferry
                            > 4-South Mountain
                            > 5-Antietam, cornfield
                            > 6-Antietam, sunken road
                            > 7-Antietam, burnside's bridge
                            > 8-return to Virginia
                            > Under that setup, if our first meeting was in January then we'd be done in
                            > August and the trip could be Aug, Sept or Oct. We meet for about 1 to 1.5
                            > hours each month so I was wondering if maybe Antietam should be broken
                            > into
                            > maybe 5 meetings. Do it as Hooker/Mansfield assault, Sumner into the
                            > woods,
                            > sunken road and burnside's bridge. That'd be 4 and the fifth could
                            > either be 2
                            > on the sunken road or AP Hill's attack. Do you think there is enough
                            > stuff
                            > happening that devoting 2 meetings to either the middle or southern areas
                            > would
                            > be worthwhile? Does all that make sense?
                            >
                            > --Nick K
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > SPONSORED LINKS American civil war Civil war history Civil war
                            > American civil war book American civil war art Civil war battles
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                            >
                            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                          • nickrelee@aol.com
                            I ll keep you posted. Sounds like we ll have a wealth of knowledgable people wanting to join along, sounds good to me. --Nick [Non-text portions of this
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 25, 2005
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                              I'll keep you posted. Sounds like we'll have a wealth of knowledgable
                              people wanting to join along, sounds good to me.
                              --Nick


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stephen Recker
                              I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from 2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name please contact me by
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from
                                2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name
                                please contact me by private email. Thanks.

                                Stephen Recker
                                Director, Antietam Tours

                                P.O. Box 705
                                Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                                240-217-3664
                                800-417-9596

                                http://www.virtualantietam.com
                                http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                                http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com
                              • G E Mayers
                                Stephen; When do you plan the next phase of initial tests for possible Antietam Tour Guides? Very respectfully, G E Gerry Mayers As an American citizen I
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                  Stephen;

                                  When do you plan the next phase of initial tests for possible Antietam Tour
                                  Guides?

                                  Very respectfully,
                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                  "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                                  and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                                  to preserve it, save that of honour."
                                  --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:30 PM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] OT - Manassas guides needed


                                  >I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from
                                  > 2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name
                                  > please contact me by private email. Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > Stephen Recker
                                  > Director, Antietam Tours
                                  >
                                  > P.O. Box 705
                                  > Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                                  > 240-217-3664
                                  > 800-417-9596
                                  >
                                  > http://www.virtualantietam.com
                                  > http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                                  > http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > SPONSORED LINKS American civil war Civil war history Civil war
                                  > American civil war book American civil war art Civil war battles
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  >
                                  > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                                  >
                                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Thomas Clemens
                                  Can t help, my daughter is getting married that day. Would like to talk wit hyou about SHAF s website when convenient. ... I just got a call from a woman who
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                    Can't help, my daughter is getting married that day. Would like to talk
                                    wit hyou about SHAF's website when convenient.

                                    >>> recker@... 10/5/2005 2:30:03 PM >>>
                                    I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from

                                    2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name
                                    please contact me by private email. Thanks.

                                    Stephen Recker
                                    Director, Antietam Tours

                                    P.O. Box 705
                                    Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                                    240-217-3664
                                    800-417-9596

                                    http://www.virtualantietam.com
                                    http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                                    http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com








                                    SPONSORED LINKS
                                    American civil war Civil war history Civil war American civil war book
                                    American civil war art Civil war battles
                                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                                    Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • G E Mayers
                                    Stephen, I would suggest you contact Dick Weeks directly. He is very knowledgeable about the field. Very respectfully, G E Gerry Mayers As an American
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                      Stephen,

                                      I would suggest you contact Dick Weeks directly. He is very knowledgeable
                                      about the field.

                                      Very respectfully,
                                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                      "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
                                      and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
                                      to preserve it, save that of honour."
                                      --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:30 PM
                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] OT - Manassas guides needed


                                      >I just got a call from a woman who needs two Manassas tour guides from
                                      > 2pm - 4pm this Saturday. If you would like me to pass on your name
                                      > please contact me by private email. Thanks.
                                      >
                                      > Stephen Recker
                                      > Director, Antietam Tours
                                      >
                                      > P.O. Box 705
                                      > Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                                      > 240-217-3664
                                      > 800-417-9596
                                      >
                                      > http://www.virtualantietam.com
                                      > http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                                      > http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > SPONSORED LINKS American civil war Civil war history Civil war
                                      > American civil war book American civil war art Civil war battles
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                      >
                                      > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
                                      >
                                      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Stephen Recker
                                      Gerry, Thanks for the question. Tests are being given on an as-needed basis. Anyone who is interested in taking the test to be a guide at Antietam National
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                        Gerry,

                                        Thanks for the question. Tests are being given on an as-needed basis.
                                        Anyone who is interested in taking the test to be a guide at Antietam
                                        National Battlefield should contact me directly and we'll get you
                                        signed up. Thanks.

                                        Regards,
                                        Stephen Recker
                                        Director, Antietam Tours

                                        P.O. Box 705
                                        Sharpsburg, MD 21782
                                        240-217-3664
                                        800-417-9596

                                        http://www.virtualantietam.com
                                        http://www.virtualgettysburg.com
                                        http://www.anothersoftwaremiracle.com


                                        On Wednesday, October 5, 2005, at 02:32 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                        > Stephen;
                                        >
                                        > When do you plan the next phase of initial tests for possible
                                        > Antietam Tour
                                        > Guides?
                                        >
                                        > Very respectfully,
                                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
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