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RE: [TalkAntietam] Wings

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    Tom, Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps commander? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 16 6:14 AM
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      Tom,



      Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps
      commander?



      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
      Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:51 AM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



      Steve,
      The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
      p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
      op. cit.
      The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
      up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
      make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
      Tom

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>









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    • Stephen Recker
      Tom, Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and found it in there. It is really helpful. Actually I never really looked through this
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 16 6:32 AM
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        Tom,

        Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
        found it in there. It is really helpful.

        Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
        there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
        the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

        Stephen



        On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

        > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
        > made
        > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
        > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
        > Tom
      • Stephen Recker
        Excellent. I ll look these up. Thanks. There is a sad irony in the second note - Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 16 6:39 AM
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          Excellent. I'll look these up. Thanks.

          There is a sad irony in the second note - "Brig. Gen. J. K. F.
          Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of Bank's (12) corps."

          Stephen

          On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

          > The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
          > p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
          > op. cit.
        • Harry Smeltzer
          Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as well. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 16 9:34 AM
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            Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as
            well.



            Harry



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Stephen Recker
            Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:33 AM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



            Tom,

            Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
            found it in there. It is really helpful.

            Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
            there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
            the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

            Stephen



            On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

            > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
            > made
            > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
            > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
            > Tom









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          • Stephen Recker
            I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called Casualties of Battle it
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 24 8:00 AM
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              I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning
              Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties
              of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
              phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000
              men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

              I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
              distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

              Stephen Recker
            • Thomas Clemens
              It sounds until 9:00 does not include the West Woods action. That would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at Carman s chart tonight
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 24 8:33 AM
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                It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                Tom Clemens

                >>> recker@... 8/24/2005 11:00:05 AM >>>

                I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning

                Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties

                of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000

                men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                Stephen Recker








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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stephen Recker
                Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn t seem to include captures, although that number is less than one thousand. Stephen Recker
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 25 5:02 AM
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                  Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn't seem to include captures,
                  although that number is less than one thousand.

                  Stephen Recker

                  On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                  >
                  > It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                  > would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                  > Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                  > Tom Clemens
                • rotbaron@aol.com
                  Stephen, Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at: http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA [Non-text portions of this
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 25 8:59 AM
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                    Stephen,

                    Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                    http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm

                    Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stephen Recker
                    Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens case that the pamphlet I was looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms. Stephen
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 25 10:49 AM
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                      Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                      looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.

                      Stephen

                      On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 11:59 AM, rotbaron@... wrote:

                      >
                      > Stephen,
                      >
                      > Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                      > http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm
                      >
                      > Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA
                    • dickeyr46
                      Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms conclusions, Dr. Harsh in Taken at the Flood also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then the total for the
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 25 2:15 PM
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                        Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                        in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                        the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                        Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                        during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                        acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                        for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                        the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                        statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."

                        Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                        fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                        casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                        Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                        for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                        phase casualty number.

                        Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                        to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                        regiments could be split between phases.

                        Ron Dickey

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...> wrote:
                        > Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                        > looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.
                        >
                        > Stephen
                      • Stephen Recker
                        Great stuff. Thanks. Stephen
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 25 2:35 PM
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                          Great stuff. Thanks.

                          Stephen

                          On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 05:15 PM, dickeyr46 wrote:

                          > Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                          > in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                          > the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                          > Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                          > during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                          > acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                          > for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                          > the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                          > statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."
                          >
                          > Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                          > fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                          > casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                          > Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                          > for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                          > phase casualty number.
                          >
                          > Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                          > to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                          > regiments could be split between phases.
                          >
                          > Ron Dickey
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...>
                          > wrote:
                          >> Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I
                          >> was
                          >> looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both
                          >> Toms.
                          >>
                          >> Stephen
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