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RE: [TalkAntietam] Wings

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    Tom, Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps commander? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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      Tom,



      Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps
      commander?



      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
      Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:51 AM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



      Steve,
      The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
      p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
      op. cit.
      The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
      up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
      make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
      Tom

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>









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    • Stephen Recker
      Interesting thought. Stephen
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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        Interesting thought.

        Stephen

        On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:52 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

        > Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had "no" combat
        > experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps?
      • Stephen Recker
        Tom, Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and found it in there. It is really helpful. Actually I never really looked through this
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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          Tom,

          Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
          found it in there. It is really helpful.

          Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
          there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
          the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

          Stephen



          On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

          > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
          > made
          > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
          > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
          > Tom
        • Stephen Recker
          Excellent. I ll look these up. Thanks. There is a sad irony in the second note - Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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            Excellent. I'll look these up. Thanks.

            There is a sad irony in the second note - "Brig. Gen. J. K. F.
            Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of Bank's (12) corps."

            Stephen

            On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

            > The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
            > p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
            > op. cit.
          • Harry Smeltzer
            Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as well. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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              Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as
              well.



              Harry



              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Stephen Recker
              Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:33 AM
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



              Tom,

              Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
              found it in there. It is really helpful.

              Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
              there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
              the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

              Stephen



              On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

              > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
              > made
              > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
              > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
              > Tom









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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stephen Recker
              I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called Casualties of Battle it
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 24, 2005
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                I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning
                Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties
                of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000
                men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                Stephen Recker
              • Thomas Clemens
                It sounds until 9:00 does not include the West Woods action. That would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at Carman s chart tonight
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 24, 2005
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                  It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                  would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                  Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                  Tom Clemens

                  >>> recker@... 8/24/2005 11:00:05 AM >>>

                  I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning

                  Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties

                  of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                  phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000

                  men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                  I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                  distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                  Stephen Recker








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                • Stephen Recker
                  Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn t seem to include captures, although that number is less than one thousand. Stephen Recker
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                    Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn't seem to include captures,
                    although that number is less than one thousand.

                    Stephen Recker

                    On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                    >
                    > It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                    > would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                    > Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                    > Tom Clemens
                  • rotbaron@aol.com
                    Stephen, Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at: http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA [Non-text portions of this
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                      Stephen,

                      Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                      http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm

                      Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stephen Recker
                      Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens case that the pamphlet I was looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms. Stephen
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                        Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                        looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.

                        Stephen

                        On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 11:59 AM, rotbaron@... wrote:

                        >
                        > Stephen,
                        >
                        > Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                        > http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm
                        >
                        > Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA
                      • dickeyr46
                        Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms conclusions, Dr. Harsh in Taken at the Flood also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then the total for the
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                          Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                          in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                          the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                          Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                          during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                          acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                          for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                          the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                          statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."

                          Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                          fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                          casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                          Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                          for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                          phase casualty number.

                          Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                          to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                          regiments could be split between phases.

                          Ron Dickey

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...> wrote:
                          > Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                          > looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.
                          >
                          > Stephen
                        • Stephen Recker
                          Great stuff. Thanks. Stephen
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                            Great stuff. Thanks.

                            Stephen

                            On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 05:15 PM, dickeyr46 wrote:

                            > Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                            > in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                            > the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                            > Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                            > during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                            > acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                            > for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                            > the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                            > statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."
                            >
                            > Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                            > fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                            > casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                            > Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                            > for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                            > phase casualty number.
                            >
                            > Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                            > to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                            > regiments could be split between phases.
                            >
                            > Ron Dickey
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...>
                            > wrote:
                            >> Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I
                            >> was
                            >> looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both
                            >> Toms.
                            >>
                            >> Stephen
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