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Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings

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  • Thomas Clemens
    Steve, The wings order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297, op. cit.
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 16 5:51 AM
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      Steve,
      The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
      p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
      op. cit.
      The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
      up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
      make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
      Tom

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Tom, Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps commander? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 16 6:14 AM
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        Tom,



        Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps
        commander?



        Harry



        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
        Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:51 AM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



        Steve,
        The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
        p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
        op. cit.
        The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
        up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
        make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
        Tom

        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>









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      • Stephen Recker
        It is interesting that taking one of two corps out of a wing could be considered a detachment. I smell intrigue. I ve heard the the Burnside, in his
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 16 6:26 AM
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          It is interesting that taking one of two corps out of a wing could be
          considered a detachment. I smell intrigue.

          I've heard the the Burnside, in his supernumary (sp?) position was
          either in his tent most of the morning or standing next to Cox
          intimidating him. Which was it? Thanks.

          Stephen

          On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 05:14 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

          > I don't think the Wing structure was dissolved. In fact, Burnside was
          > still
          > a wing commander - Hooker was detached. This left Burnside with only
          > one
          > corps in his wing, 9th Corps. Cox was in direct command of 9th Corps.
          > Burnside really served no useful purpose in this case, though orders
          > from
          > army command were still filtered through his staff to Cox. This
          > situation
          > has been described as contributing to the troubles at the Lower Bridge.
          >
        • Stephen Recker
          Interesting thought. Stephen
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 16 6:27 AM
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            Interesting thought.

            Stephen

            On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:52 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

            > Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had "no" combat
            > experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps?
          • Stephen Recker
            Gerry, Thanks for this recommendation. I think they have this at the Antietam bookstore. I ll check it out. Stephen
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 16 6:28 AM
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              Gerry,

              Thanks for this recommendation. I think they have this at the Antietam
              bookstore. I'll check it out.

              Stephen

              On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:53 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

              > Dear Stephen,
              >
              > I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the
              > Federal
              > casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be
              > helpful?
              >
              > Very respectfully,
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            • Stephen Recker
              Tom, Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and found it in there. It is really helpful. Actually I never really looked through this
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 16 6:32 AM
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                Tom,

                Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
                found it in there. It is really helpful.

                Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
                there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
                the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

                Stephen



                On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
                > made
                > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
                > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
                > Tom
              • Stephen Recker
                Excellent. I ll look these up. Thanks. There is a sad irony in the second note - Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 16 6:39 AM
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                  Excellent. I'll look these up. Thanks.

                  There is a sad irony in the second note - "Brig. Gen. J. K. F.
                  Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of Bank's (12) corps."

                  Stephen

                  On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                  > The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
                  > p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
                  > op. cit.
                • Harry Smeltzer
                  Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as well. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 16 9:34 AM
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                    Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as
                    well.



                    Harry



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:33 AM
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



                    Tom,

                    Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
                    found it in there. It is really helpful.

                    Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
                    there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
                    the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

                    Stephen



                    On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                    > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
                    > made
                    > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
                    > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
                    > Tom









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                  • Stephen Recker
                    I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called Casualties of Battle it
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 24 8:00 AM
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                      I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning
                      Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties
                      of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                      phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000
                      men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                      I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                      distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                      Stephen Recker
                    • Thomas Clemens
                      It sounds until 9:00 does not include the West Woods action. That would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at Carman s chart tonight
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 24 8:33 AM
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                        It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                        would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                        Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                        Tom Clemens

                        >>> recker@... 8/24/2005 11:00:05 AM >>>

                        I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning

                        Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties

                        of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                        phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000

                        men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                        I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                        distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                        Stephen Recker








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                      • Stephen Recker
                        Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn t seem to include captures, although that number is less than one thousand. Stephen Recker
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 25 5:02 AM
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                          Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn't seem to include captures,
                          although that number is less than one thousand.

                          Stephen Recker

                          On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                          >
                          > It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                          > would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                          > Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                          > Tom Clemens
                        • rotbaron@aol.com
                          Stephen, Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at: http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA [Non-text portions of this
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 25 8:59 AM
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                            Stephen,

                            Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                            http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm

                            Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Stephen Recker
                            Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens case that the pamphlet I was looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms. Stephen
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 25 10:49 AM
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                              Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                              looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.

                              Stephen

                              On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 11:59 AM, rotbaron@... wrote:

                              >
                              > Stephen,
                              >
                              > Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                              > http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm
                              >
                              > Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA
                            • dickeyr46
                              Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms conclusions, Dr. Harsh in Taken at the Flood also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then the total for the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 25 2:15 PM
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                                Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                                in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                                the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                                Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                                during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                                acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                                for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                                the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                                statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."

                                Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                                fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                                casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                                Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                                for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                                phase casualty number.

                                Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                                to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                                regiments could be split between phases.

                                Ron Dickey

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...> wrote:
                                > Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                                > looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.
                                >
                                > Stephen
                              • Stephen Recker
                                Great stuff. Thanks. Stephen
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 25 2:35 PM
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                                  Great stuff. Thanks.

                                  Stephen

                                  On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 05:15 PM, dickeyr46 wrote:

                                  > Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                                  > in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                                  > the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                                  > Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                                  > during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                                  > acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                                  > for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                                  > the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                                  > statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."
                                  >
                                  > Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                                  > fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                                  > casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                                  > Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                                  > for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                                  > phase casualty number.
                                  >
                                  > Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                                  > to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                                  > regiments could be split between phases.
                                  >
                                  > Ron Dickey
                                  >
                                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >> Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I
                                  >> was
                                  >> looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both
                                  >> Toms.
                                  >>
                                  >> Stephen
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