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Re: [TalkAntietam] Body Count

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Stephen, I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the Federal casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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      Dear Stephen,

      I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the Federal
      casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be helpful?

      Very respectfully,
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
      and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
      to preserve it, save that of honour."
      --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:06 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Body Count


      > What is considered the best overview of casualties as broken down by
      > geographical area on the Antietam Battlefield? The CWTI special issue
      > has that great casualty chart, based on Carman, but it is broken down
      > by command. Thanks.
      >
      > Stephen Recker
      >
      >
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    • Thomas Clemens
      Steve, The wings order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297, op. cit.
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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        Steve,
        The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
        p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
        op. cit.
        The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
        up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
        make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
        Tom

        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>
      • Harry Smeltzer
        Tom, Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps commander? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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          Tom,



          Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps
          commander?



          Harry



          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
          Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:51 AM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



          Steve,
          The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
          p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
          op. cit.
          The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
          up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
          make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
          Tom

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>









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        • Stephen Recker
          It is interesting that taking one of two corps out of a wing could be considered a detachment. I smell intrigue. I ve heard the the Burnside, in his
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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            It is interesting that taking one of two corps out of a wing could be
            considered a detachment. I smell intrigue.

            I've heard the the Burnside, in his supernumary (sp?) position was
            either in his tent most of the morning or standing next to Cox
            intimidating him. Which was it? Thanks.

            Stephen

            On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 05:14 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

            > I don't think the Wing structure was dissolved. In fact, Burnside was
            > still
            > a wing commander - Hooker was detached. This left Burnside with only
            > one
            > corps in his wing, 9th Corps. Cox was in direct command of 9th Corps.
            > Burnside really served no useful purpose in this case, though orders
            > from
            > army command were still filtered through his staff to Cox. This
            > situation
            > has been described as contributing to the troubles at the Lower Bridge.
            >
          • Stephen Recker
            Interesting thought. Stephen
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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              Interesting thought.

              Stephen

              On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:52 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

              > Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had "no" combat
              > experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps?
            • Stephen Recker
              Gerry, Thanks for this recommendation. I think they have this at the Antietam bookstore. I ll check it out. Stephen
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                Gerry,

                Thanks for this recommendation. I think they have this at the Antietam
                bookstore. I'll check it out.

                Stephen

                On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:53 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                > Dear Stephen,
                >
                > I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the
                > Federal
                > casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be
                > helpful?
                >
                > Very respectfully,
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              • Stephen Recker
                Tom, Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and found it in there. It is really helpful. Actually I never really looked through this
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                  Tom,

                  Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
                  found it in there. It is really helpful.

                  Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
                  there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
                  the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

                  Stephen



                  On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                  > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
                  > made
                  > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
                  > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
                  > Tom
                • Stephen Recker
                  Excellent. I ll look these up. Thanks. There is a sad irony in the second note - Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                    Excellent. I'll look these up. Thanks.

                    There is a sad irony in the second note - "Brig. Gen. J. K. F.
                    Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of Bank's (12) corps."

                    Stephen

                    On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                    > The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
                    > p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
                    > op. cit.
                  • Harry Smeltzer
                    Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as well. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                      Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as
                      well.



                      Harry



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:33 AM
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



                      Tom,

                      Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
                      found it in there. It is really helpful.

                      Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
                      there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
                      the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

                      Stephen



                      On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                      > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
                      > made
                      > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
                      > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
                      > Tom









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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stephen Recker
                      I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called Casualties of Battle it
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 24, 2005
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                        I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning
                        Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties
                        of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                        phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000
                        men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                        I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                        distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                        Stephen Recker
                      • Thomas Clemens
                        It sounds until 9:00 does not include the West Woods action. That would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at Carman s chart tonight
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 24, 2005
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                          It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                          would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                          Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                          Tom Clemens

                          >>> recker@... 8/24/2005 11:00:05 AM >>>

                          I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning

                          Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties

                          of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                          phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000

                          men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                          I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                          distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                          Stephen Recker








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                        • Stephen Recker
                          Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn t seem to include captures, although that number is less than one thousand. Stephen Recker
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                            Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn't seem to include captures,
                            although that number is less than one thousand.

                            Stephen Recker

                            On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                            >
                            > It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                            > would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                            > Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                            > Tom Clemens
                          • rotbaron@aol.com
                            Stephen, Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at: http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA [Non-text portions of this
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                              Stephen,

                              Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                              http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm

                              Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stephen Recker
                              Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens case that the pamphlet I was looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms. Stephen
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                                Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                                looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.

                                Stephen

                                On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 11:59 AM, rotbaron@... wrote:

                                >
                                > Stephen,
                                >
                                > Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                                > http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm
                                >
                                > Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA
                              • dickeyr46
                                Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms conclusions, Dr. Harsh in Taken at the Flood also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then the total for the
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                                  Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                                  in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                                  the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                                  Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                                  during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                                  acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                                  for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                                  the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                                  statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."

                                  Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                                  fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                                  casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                                  Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                                  for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                                  phase casualty number.

                                  Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                                  to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                                  regiments could be split between phases.

                                  Ron Dickey

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...> wrote:
                                  > Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                                  > looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.
                                  >
                                  > Stephen
                                • Stephen Recker
                                  Great stuff. Thanks. Stephen
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                                    Great stuff. Thanks.

                                    Stephen

                                    On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 05:15 PM, dickeyr46 wrote:

                                    > Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                                    > in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                                    > the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                                    > Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                                    > during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                                    > acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                                    > for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                                    > the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                                    > statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."
                                    >
                                    > Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                                    > fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                                    > casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                                    > Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                                    > for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                                    > phase casualty number.
                                    >
                                    > Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                                    > to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                                    > regiments could be split between phases.
                                    >
                                    > Ron Dickey
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    >> Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I
                                    >> was
                                    >> looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both
                                    >> Toms.
                                    >>
                                    >> Stephen
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