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Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Stephen, Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had no combat experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps? Very respectfully,
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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      Dear Stephen,

      Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had "no" combat
      experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps?

      Very respectfully,
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
      and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
      to preserve it, save that of honour."
      --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:02 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Wings


      > Somewhere I got the impression that McClellan dissolved the Wing
      > structure of the AOP after the Battle of South Mountain. This would
      > explain how Hooker and Burnside ended up on opposite ends of the field.
      >
      > If this was so, why did McClellan tell Sumner, as Wing Commander, to
      > send in the XII Corps?
      >
      > Any thoughts? Thanks.
      >
      > Stephen Recker
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • G E Mayers
      Dear Stephen, I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the Federal casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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        Dear Stephen,

        I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the Federal
        casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be helpful?

        Very respectfully,
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
        and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
        to preserve it, save that of honour."
        --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:06 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Body Count


        > What is considered the best overview of casualties as broken down by
        > geographical area on the Antietam Battlefield? The CWTI special issue
        > has that great casualty chart, based on Carman, but it is broken down
        > by command. Thanks.
        >
        > Stephen Recker
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
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      • Thomas Clemens
        Steve, The wings order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297, op. cit.
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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          Steve,
          The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
          p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
          op. cit.
          The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
          up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
          make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
          Tom

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>
        • Harry Smeltzer
          Tom, Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps commander? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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            Tom,



            Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps
            commander?



            Harry



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
            Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:51 AM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



            Steve,
            The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
            p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
            op. cit.
            The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
            up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
            make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
            Tom

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College


            >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>









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          • Stephen Recker
            It is interesting that taking one of two corps out of a wing could be considered a detachment. I smell intrigue. I ve heard the the Burnside, in his
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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              It is interesting that taking one of two corps out of a wing could be
              considered a detachment. I smell intrigue.

              I've heard the the Burnside, in his supernumary (sp?) position was
              either in his tent most of the morning or standing next to Cox
              intimidating him. Which was it? Thanks.

              Stephen

              On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 05:14 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

              > I don't think the Wing structure was dissolved. In fact, Burnside was
              > still
              > a wing commander - Hooker was detached. This left Burnside with only
              > one
              > corps in his wing, 9th Corps. Cox was in direct command of 9th Corps.
              > Burnside really served no useful purpose in this case, though orders
              > from
              > army command were still filtered through his staff to Cox. This
              > situation
              > has been described as contributing to the troubles at the Lower Bridge.
              >
            • Stephen Recker
              Interesting thought. Stephen
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                Interesting thought.

                Stephen

                On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:52 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                > Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had "no" combat
                > experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps?
              • Stephen Recker
                Gerry, Thanks for this recommendation. I think they have this at the Antietam bookstore. I ll check it out. Stephen
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                  Gerry,

                  Thanks for this recommendation. I think they have this at the Antietam
                  bookstore. I'll check it out.

                  Stephen

                  On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:53 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                  > Dear Stephen,
                  >
                  > I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the
                  > Federal
                  > casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be
                  > helpful?
                  >
                  > Very respectfully,
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                • Stephen Recker
                  Tom, Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and found it in there. It is really helpful. Actually I never really looked through this
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                    Tom,

                    Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
                    found it in there. It is really helpful.

                    Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
                    there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
                    the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

                    Stephen



                    On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                    > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
                    > made
                    > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
                    > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
                    > Tom
                  • Stephen Recker
                    Excellent. I ll look these up. Thanks. There is a sad irony in the second note - Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                      Excellent. I'll look these up. Thanks.

                      There is a sad irony in the second note - "Brig. Gen. J. K. F.
                      Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of Bank's (12) corps."

                      Stephen

                      On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                      > The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
                      > p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
                      > op. cit.
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as well. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 16, 2005
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                        Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as
                        well.



                        Harry



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:33 AM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



                        Tom,

                        Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
                        found it in there. It is really helpful.

                        Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
                        there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
                        the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

                        Stephen



                        On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                        > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
                        > made
                        > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
                        > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
                        > Tom









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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Stephen Recker
                        I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called Casualties of Battle it
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 24, 2005
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                          I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning
                          Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties
                          of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                          phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000
                          men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                          I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                          distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                          Stephen Recker
                        • Thomas Clemens
                          It sounds until 9:00 does not include the West Woods action. That would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at Carman s chart tonight
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 24, 2005
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                            It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                            would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                            Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                            Tom Clemens

                            >>> recker@... 8/24/2005 11:00:05 AM >>>

                            I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning

                            Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties

                            of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                            phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000

                            men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                            I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                            distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                            Stephen Recker








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                          • Stephen Recker
                            Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn t seem to include captures, although that number is less than one thousand. Stephen Recker
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                              Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn't seem to include captures,
                              although that number is less than one thousand.

                              Stephen Recker

                              On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                              >
                              > It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                              > would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                              > Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                              > Tom Clemens
                            • rotbaron@aol.com
                              Stephen, Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at: http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA [Non-text portions of this
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                                Stephen,

                                Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                                http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm

                                Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Stephen Recker
                                Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens case that the pamphlet I was looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms. Stephen
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                                  Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                                  looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.

                                  Stephen

                                  On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 11:59 AM, rotbaron@... wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Stephen,
                                  >
                                  > Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                                  > http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm
                                  >
                                  > Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA
                                • dickeyr46
                                  Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms conclusions, Dr. Harsh in Taken at the Flood also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then the total for the
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                                    Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                                    in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                                    the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                                    Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                                    during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                                    acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                                    for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                                    the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                                    statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."

                                    Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                                    fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                                    casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                                    Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                                    for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                                    phase casualty number.

                                    Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                                    to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                                    regiments could be split between phases.

                                    Ron Dickey

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...> wrote:
                                    > Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                                    > looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.
                                    >
                                    > Stephen
                                  • Stephen Recker
                                    Great stuff. Thanks. Stephen
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 25, 2005
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                                      Great stuff. Thanks.

                                      Stephen

                                      On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 05:15 PM, dickeyr46 wrote:

                                      > Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                                      > in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                                      > the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                                      > Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                                      > during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                                      > acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                                      > for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                                      > the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                                      > statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."
                                      >
                                      > Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                                      > fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                                      > casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                                      > Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                                      > for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                                      > phase casualty number.
                                      >
                                      > Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                                      > to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                                      > regiments could be split between phases.
                                      >
                                      > Ron Dickey
                                      >
                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      >> Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I
                                      >> was
                                      >> looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both
                                      >> Toms.
                                      >>
                                      >> Stephen
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