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RE: [TalkAntietam] Wings

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    I don t think the Wing structure was dissolved. In fact, Burnside was still a wing commander - Hooker was detached. This left Burnside with only one corps in
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 15 2:14 PM
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      I don't think the Wing structure was dissolved. In fact, Burnside was still
      a wing commander - Hooker was detached. This left Burnside with only one
      corps in his wing, 9th Corps. Cox was in direct command of 9th Corps.
      Burnside really served no useful purpose in this case, though orders from
      army command were still filtered through his staff to Cox. This situation
      has been described as contributing to the troubles at the Lower Bridge.



      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Stephen Recker
      Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:03 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Wings



      Somewhere I got the impression that McClellan dissolved the Wing
      structure of the AOP after the Battle of South Mountain. This would
      explain how Hooker and Burnside ended up on opposite ends of the field.

      If this was so, why did McClellan tell Sumner, as Wing Commander, to
      send in the XII Corps?

      Any thoughts? Thanks.

      Stephen Recker









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    • G E Mayers
      Dear Stephen, Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had no combat experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps? Very respectfully,
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 15 7:52 PM
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        Dear Stephen,

        Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had "no" combat
        experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps?

        Very respectfully,
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
        and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
        to preserve it, save that of honour."
        --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:02 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Wings


        > Somewhere I got the impression that McClellan dissolved the Wing
        > structure of the AOP after the Battle of South Mountain. This would
        > explain how Hooker and Burnside ended up on opposite ends of the field.
        >
        > If this was so, why did McClellan tell Sumner, as Wing Commander, to
        > send in the XII Corps?
        >
        > Any thoughts? Thanks.
        >
        > Stephen Recker
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • G E Mayers
        Dear Stephen, I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the Federal casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 15 7:53 PM
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          Dear Stephen,

          I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the Federal
          casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be helpful?

          Very respectfully,
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          "As an American citizen I prize the Union very highly
          and know of no personal sacrifice that I would not make
          to preserve it, save that of honour."
          --Robt. E. Lee, Letter to Rooney Lee, 3 December 1860

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:06 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Body Count


          > What is considered the best overview of casualties as broken down by
          > geographical area on the Antietam Battlefield? The CWTI special issue
          > has that great casualty chart, based on Carman, but it is broken down
          > by command. Thanks.
          >
          > Stephen Recker
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Thomas Clemens
          Steve, The wings order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297, op. cit.
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 16 5:51 AM
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            Steve,
            The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
            p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
            op. cit.
            The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
            up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
            make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
            Tom

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College


            >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>
          • Harry Smeltzer
            Tom, Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps commander? Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 16 6:14 AM
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              Tom,



              Then why was Burnside still acting as wing commander, and Cox as 9th Corps
              commander?



              Harry



              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Thomas Clemens
              Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:51 AM
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



              Steve,
              The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
              p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
              op. cit.
              The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one made
              up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
              make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
              Tom

              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College


              >>> recker@... 08/15/05 5:02 PM >>>









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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stephen Recker
              It is interesting that taking one of two corps out of a wing could be considered a detachment. I smell intrigue. I ve heard the the Burnside, in his
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 16 6:26 AM
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                It is interesting that taking one of two corps out of a wing could be
                considered a detachment. I smell intrigue.

                I've heard the the Burnside, in his supernumary (sp?) position was
                either in his tent most of the morning or standing next to Cox
                intimidating him. Which was it? Thanks.

                Stephen

                On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 05:14 PM, Harry Smeltzer wrote:

                > I don't think the Wing structure was dissolved. In fact, Burnside was
                > still
                > a wing commander - Hooker was detached. This left Burnside with only
                > one
                > corps in his wing, 9th Corps. Cox was in direct command of 9th Corps.
                > Burnside really served no useful purpose in this case, though orders
                > from
                > army command were still filtered through his staff to Cox. This
                > situation
                > has been described as contributing to the troubles at the Lower Bridge.
                >
              • Stephen Recker
                Interesting thought. Stephen
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 16 6:27 AM
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                  Interesting thought.

                  Stephen

                  On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:52 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                  > Could it possibly be due to the fact that Mansfield had "no" combat
                  > experience prior to being given command of the 12th Corps?
                • Stephen Recker
                  Gerry, Thanks for this recommendation. I think they have this at the Antietam bookstore. I ll check it out. Stephen
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 16 6:28 AM
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                    Gerry,

                    Thanks for this recommendation. I think they have this at the Antietam
                    bookstore. I'll check it out.

                    Stephen

                    On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 10:53 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                    > Dear Stephen,
                    >
                    > I am not sure, but John Nelson has an excellent CD detailing the
                    > Federal
                    > casualties and a listing of all the Field Hospitals. Would this be
                    > helpful?
                    >
                    > Very respectfully,
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  • Stephen Recker
                    Tom, Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and found it in there. It is really helpful. Actually I never really looked through this
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 16 6:32 AM
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                      Tom,

                      Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
                      found it in there. It is really helpful.

                      Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
                      there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
                      the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

                      Stephen



                      On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                      > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
                      > made
                      > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
                      > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
                      > Tom
                    • Stephen Recker
                      Excellent. I ll look these up. Thanks. There is a sad irony in the second note - Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 16 6:39 AM
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                        Excellent. I'll look these up. Thanks.

                        There is a sad irony in the second note - "Brig. Gen. J. K. F.
                        Mansfield is TEMPORARILY assigned to the command of Bank's (12) corps."

                        Stephen

                        On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                        > The "wings" order was made offiical on Sept. 14, by Special Order. See
                        > p. 290, OR, Vol. 19 pt. 2. It was suspended on Sept. 15, see p. 297,
                        > op. cit.
                      • Harry Smeltzer
                        Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as well. Harry ... From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 16 9:34 AM
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                          Is that the set that comes in a zip-lock baggie? I think I have that as
                          well.



                          Harry



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:33 AM
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Wings



                          Tom,

                          Thanks for pointing me to this. I have a stack of park brochures and
                          found it in there. It is really helpful.

                          Actually I never really looked through this stack of brochures, but
                          there is some really great stuff in hear. The Antietam bookstore sells
                          the whole bunch for about $1. What a great deal.

                          Stephen



                          On Tuesday, August 16, 2005, at 08:51 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                          > The best summary of casualtires by location that I have seen is one
                          > made
                          > up by the interp staff and I carry in my notebook. I'll be happy to
                          > make a copy for you, or talk to Keith.
                          > Tom









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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Stephen Recker
                          I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called Casualties of Battle it
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 24 8:00 AM
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                            I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning
                            Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties
                            of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                            phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000
                            men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                            I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                            distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                            Stephen Recker
                          • Thomas Clemens
                            It sounds until 9:00 does not include the West Woods action. That would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at Carman s chart tonight
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 24 8:33 AM
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                              It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                              would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                              Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                              Tom Clemens

                              >>> recker@... 8/24/2005 11:00:05 AM >>>

                              I am trying to get a handle on the number of casualties in the Morning

                              Phase of the battle of Antietam. In the NPS pamphlet called "Casualties

                              of Battle" it states that there were 13,860 casualties in the morning
                              phase. In the Cornfield Trail pamphlet it states that 'as many as 8,000

                              men were killed or wounded from dawn until 9:00 am'.

                              I have seen this range stated in a number of places. Is there a
                              distinction that I am missing between the two numbers? Thanks.

                              Stephen Recker








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                            • Stephen Recker
                              Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn t seem to include captures, although that number is less than one thousand. Stephen Recker
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 25 5:02 AM
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                                Thanks, Tom. And the lower number doesn't seem to include captures,
                                although that number is less than one thousand.

                                Stephen Recker

                                On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                                >
                                > It sounds "until 9:00" does not include the West Woods action. That
                                > would account for at least some of the disparity. I will look at
                                > Carman's chart tonight and get back to you.
                                > Tom Clemens
                              • rotbaron@aol.com
                                Stephen, Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at: http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA [Non-text portions of this
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 25 8:59 AM
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                                  Stephen,

                                  Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                                  http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm

                                  Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Stephen Recker
                                  Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens case that the pamphlet I was looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms. Stephen
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 25 10:49 AM
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                                    Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                                    looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.

                                    Stephen

                                    On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 11:59 AM, rotbaron@... wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Stephen,
                                    >
                                    > Antietam casualties are broken out on the NPS webpage at:
                                    > http://www.nps.gov/anti/casualty.htm
                                    >
                                    > Tom Shay - Cresssona, PA
                                  • dickeyr46
                                    Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms conclusions, Dr. Harsh in Taken at the Flood also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then the total for the
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 25 2:15 PM
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                                      Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                                      in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                                      the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                                      Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                                      during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                                      acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                                      for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                                      the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                                      statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."

                                      Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                                      fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                                      casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                                      Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                                      for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                                      phase casualty number.

                                      Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                                      to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                                      regiments could be split between phases.

                                      Ron Dickey

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...> wrote:
                                      > Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I was
                                      > looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both Toms.
                                      >
                                      > Stephen
                                    • Stephen Recker
                                      Great stuff. Thanks. Stephen
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 25 2:35 PM
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                                        Great stuff. Thanks.

                                        Stephen

                                        On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 05:15 PM, dickeyr46 wrote:

                                        > Stephen, just as reinforcement to the two Toms' conclusions, Dr. Harsh
                                        > in "Taken at the Flood" also addresses casualties up to 9 am and then
                                        > the total for the "Morning Phase." Addressing up to 9 am (the
                                        > Cornfield and East Woods), on p. 376, Dr. Harsh writes, "In all,
                                        > during the three hours, 27,000 men had struggled over the same 160
                                        > acres and 8,700 (32.2 percent) had fallen." I believe I can accounted
                                        > for 604 missing from units engaged up to this time. If you subtract
                                        > the missing, that comes very close to the "Cornfield Trail" pamphlet
                                        > statement of "as many as 8,000 men were killed or wounded."
                                        >
                                        > Dr. Harsh concluded on p. 394 that 4,481 caualties occured during the
                                        > fighting in the West Woods and around the Dunker Church. This includes
                                        > casualties suffered by Col. Irwin's brigade in the vicinity of the
                                        > Dunker Church, less those of the 7th Maine. On p. 395, he gives 13,179
                                        > for the total "Morning Phase". Again, very close to the NPS morning
                                        > phase casualty number.
                                        >
                                        > Dr. Harsh references Section K of Chapter 9 of "Sounding the Shallows"
                                        > to address allocating casualties for units when divisions and even
                                        > regiments could be split between phases.
                                        >
                                        > Ron Dickey
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@v...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        >> Thanks. These statistics make Tom Clemens' case that the pamphlet I
                                        >> was
                                        >> looking at did not include the West Woods. Awesome. Thanks to both
                                        >> Toms.
                                        >>
                                        >> Stephen
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