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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: US Civil War Factbook

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  • James Rose
    ... I m trying to figure out how I can prevent you from saying that. :) Sure the battle could have gone better for the North. Such as if A.P. Hill had arrived
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 7 5:17 PM
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      Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine) wrote:

      > It would for those who wish to read it that way, but by the contemporary
      > yardstick, it you left first, you lose -- as at Stones River. Tactically you
      > can easily call it a draw, but strategically, Lee was in Maryland, and then
      > he wasn't. (And for those who would quibble, "left first" as in breaking off
      > offensive efforts.)
      >
      > Needless to say, in terms of what _might_ have happened, if Jim Rose will
      > allow me to get away with saying this, the battle was a failure of immense
      > proportions on the Union side.

      I'm trying to figure out how I can prevent you from saying that. :)
      Sure the battle could have gone better for the North. Such as if A.P.
      Hill had arrived either much earlier or latter in the battle, or if
      Rodman hadn't been mortally wounded there are good reasons to believe
      that Antietam would have been a complete victory.

      If you are talking about the chance for the AotP to totally destroy the
      ANV, I'm afraid I still don't see it. As far as I know there was only
      one time (ONE) that an army was destroyed during the war. According to
      Livermore the odds were worse for the Union at Antietam (1.45-1) than at
      Nashville (2.14-1). Admittedly Livermore may not be the best, but using
      Harsh's numbers the odds only up in the Union's favor a little bit at
      Antietam (1.58-1). Quite simply the evidence from the war suggests that
      one (of many) things needed for one army to destroy another is numerical
      superiority of at least 2-1, and that is something that McClellan did
      not have. If you can show me a single example of where an army in the
      Civil War that had a 1.58-1 or less superiority in effectives destroyed
      the other army I will change my opinion. Until that happens I will
      maintain that McClellan did a very good job during the Maryland campaign.

      Jim Rose
    • Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine)
      Not talking about wiping Lee out to a man; just doing even more damage than they did. An interesting comment along those lines comes from Porter Alexander, who
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 8 6:25 AM
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        Not talking about wiping Lee out to a man; just doing even more damage than
        they did.

        An interesting comment along those lines comes from Porter Alexander, who
        while saying that Meade was entirely right not to attack at Falling Waters,
        as they'd have waxed his tail for him all too happily, with the opportunity
        to end the war in one afternoon, he should have tried anyway. (A good
        example of talking out of both sides of your mouth but still making sense
        anyway if there ever was one.)

        That same theory, such as it is and so far as it goes, might have been
        applied to McClellan on the 18th.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: James Rose [mailto:eodrose@...]
        Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 7:17 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: US Civil War Factbook




        Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine) wrote:

        > It would for those who wish to read it that way, but by the contemporary
        > yardstick, it you left first, you lose -- as at Stones River. Tactically
        you
        > can easily call it a draw, but strategically, Lee was in Maryland, and
        then
        > he wasn't. (And for those who would quibble, "left first" as in breaking
        off
        > offensive efforts.)
        >
        > Needless to say, in terms of what _might_ have happened, if Jim Rose will
        > allow me to get away with saying this, the battle was a failure of immense
        > proportions on the Union side.

        I'm trying to figure out how I can prevent you from saying that. :)
        Sure the battle could have gone better for the North. Such as if A.P.
        Hill had arrived either much earlier or latter in the battle, or if
        Rodman hadn't been mortally wounded there are good reasons to believe
        that Antietam would have been a complete victory.

        If you are talking about the chance for the AotP to totally destroy the
        ANV, I'm afraid I still don't see it. As far as I know there was only
        one time (ONE) that an army was destroyed during the war. According to
        Livermore the odds were worse for the Union at Antietam (1.45-1) than at
        Nashville (2.14-1). Admittedly Livermore may not be the best, but using
        Harsh's numbers the odds only up in the Union's favor a little bit at
        Antietam (1.58-1). Quite simply the evidence from the war suggests that
        one (of many) things needed for one army to destroy another is numerical
        superiority of at least 2-1, and that is something that McClellan did
        not have. If you can show me a single example of where an army in the
        Civil War that had a 1.58-1 or less superiority in effectives destroyed
        the other army I will change my opinion. Until that happens I will
        maintain that McClellan did a very good job during the Maryland campaign.

        Jim Rose






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      • James Rose
        ... I understand the theory, but for the Union I don t accept its validity. What some people have trouble understanding is that sometimes the attacker loses
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 8 9:25 AM
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          Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine) wrote:

          > Not talking about wiping Lee out to a man; just doing even more damage than
          > they did.
          >
          > An interesting comment along those lines comes from Porter Alexander, who
          > while saying that Meade was entirely right not to attack at Falling Waters,
          > as they'd have waxed his tail for him all too happily, with the opportunity
          > to end the war in one afternoon, he should have tried anyway. (A good
          > example of talking out of both sides of your mouth but still making sense
          > anyway if there ever was one.)
          >
          > That same theory, such as it is and so far as it goes, might have been
          > applied to McClellan on the 18th.

          I understand the theory, but for the Union I don't accept its validity.
          What some people have trouble understanding is that sometimes the
          attacker loses the battle even when they outnumber their opponent.
          Battles of the "win the war in one battle" (if such actually exist)
          variety usually apply to both sides. In that case the person with the
          upper hand (ie the one who will win in the end anyway) would be a fool
          to give the underdog a chance at total victory.

          Whether or not Lee and McClellan were right that a decisive Confederate
          victory in Maryland would give the best chance to end the war in the
          Confederacy's favor, they were both thinking in those terms.
          McClellan's conduct during the campaign was to deny Lee that victory.

          Jim Rose
        • NJ Rebel
          Tony-- After having been away all week in Chicago at a trade show, I am only now joining in again and am shortly off for the weekend to my family summer
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 8 3:23 PM
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            Tony--

            After having been away all week in Chicago at a trade show, I am
            only now joining in again and am shortly off for the weekend to
            my family "summer house"....

            Actually, IMHO, no one won the Civil War!

            Your humble servant,
            Gerry Mayers
            Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
            Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

            "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
            on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
            Edward Lee


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Anthony W. Turner" <awturner@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 11:54 AM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: US Civil War Factbook


            > Re: Who won? Who lost?
            >
            > For me, this raises a semantics question. Wouldn't it be right
            to call
            > it a tactical draw and a strategic victory for the Union?
            >
            > Tony Turner
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
          • Anthony W. Turner
            Off the top, I agree with you about no one winning the war, Gerry. It might be a worthy topic for discussion on a forum with a broader range, however. In how
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 8 4:40 PM
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              Off the top, I agree with you about no one winning the war, Gerry. It
              might be a worthy topic for discussion on a forum with a broader range,
              however. In how many contexts can we put the question, "Who won?"..???

              My own "Who won? Who lost?" comment on TalkAntietam referred to the
              battle, not the war. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

              Enjoy your weekend.

              Tony Turner
            • Curt
              I would suggest: Mill Springs (A/D 1:1) Brice s Cross Roads (A/D 0.4/1.0) If you would like a contemporary European example, there is Sadowa (1866)(A/D
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 8 11:56 PM
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                I would suggest:

                Mill Springs (A/D 1:1)

                Brice's Cross Roads (A/D 0.4/1.0)

                If you would like a contemporary European example, there is Sadowa
                (1866)(A/D 1.0/0.98).

                These were true battles of annihilation, as was Nashville, which I
                assume is your unnamed example (benchmark?).

                As I have attempted to demonstrate elsewhere, in discussion of the
                purported 3-1 rule, there is no real correlation of raw numbers of
                personnel to success in battle.

                Curt Johnson
                McLean, Va.


                James Rose wrote:
                If you can show me a single example of where an army in the
                > Civil War that had a 1.58-1 or less superiority in effectives destroyed
                > the other army I will change my opinion. Until that happens I will
                > maintain that McClellan did a very good job during the Maryland campaign.
                >
                > Jim Rose
                >
              • James Rose
                ... I don t have much information on those two battles, but what I do have does not equate to battles of annihilation . At Mills Springs the forces were US
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 9 7:10 AM
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                  Curt wrote:

                  > I would suggest:
                  >
                  > Mill Springs (A/D 1:1)
                  >
                  > Brice's Cross Roads (A/D 0.4/1.0)

                  I don't have much information on those two battles, but what I do have
                  does not equate to "battles of annihilation".

                  At Mills Springs the forces were US 4,000 to CS 4,000. Casualties were
                  US 262 to CS 529. Crittenden abandoned most of his equipment in the
                  retreat. True it was a resounding victory for the US forces, but it
                  stops well short of annihilation. I would like to point out two extra
                  things about this battle. One, the scale of operations is significantly
                  much smaller than I was thinking about (when I say army I generally
                  refer to at least 20,000 men). Scale of operations does make a
                  difference. Two, if what I read about many of Crittenden's men having
                  weapons that didn't work is correct, then the odds change. A man cannot
                  be considered a fighting effective if his weapon doesn't work.

                  Brice's Cross Roads is a much better example (although the problem of
                  scale is still there). The forces were US 8,100 to CS 3,500
                  (interestingly at 2.3:1 this is close to the superiority that many
                  people believe McClellan had over Lee). Casualties were US 2,612 to CS
                  493. It was a rout, massive one sided victory (question are there any
                  victories that were more one sided during the war), and just an all
                  round good day for Forrest. However, Sturgis still made it to safety
                  with the bulk of his army. I would like to point out one thing about
                  this battle. The CS had Forrest. McClellan was many things, but a
                  tactical genius was not one of them.

                  I was looking up Nashville (yes it was the benchmark), and one
                  conclusion jumps out at me. The difference between being routed and
                  annihilation has a lot to do with the support structure of the army in
                  question. As near as I can tell the only reason why Hood's army was
                  "destroyed" was because the South could no longer recover from a massive
                  defeat. This was not the situation in 1862.

                  > As I have attempted to demonstrate elsewhere, in discussion of the
                  > purported 3-1 rule, there is no real correlation of raw numbers of
                  > personnel to success in battle.

                  If this is true (which in general I agree) then why do people
                  automatically assume that McClellan would defeat and destroy Lee? From
                  every account I have read and heard Lee is considered a much better
                  tactical commander than McClellan. I don't deny that McClellan might
                  have been able to destroy the ANV. What I deny is that it is a given
                  that had McClellan attacked on the 18th he would have destroyed the
                  ANV. If anything Brice's Cross Roads shows that it could have gone the
                  other way.

                  In the Maryland campaign McClellan had two things going for him: numbers
                  (which he was unaware of his advantage), and supply (his supply
                  situation was far better than Lee's). He had five things going against
                  him: strategic defense (i.e. he was reacting to Lee), tactical offense
                  (if 3-1 isn't an official axiom, it is still better to be in a strong
                  defensive position when fighting), morale (his army had just been
                  routed), combat veterans (13% had never been in combat, and many of
                  those who had been in only one major campaign got their experience at
                  2nd Manassas), and tactical command ( the Lee/Longstreet/Jackson team is
                  considered far better than the McClellan/Burnside/Porter team). The
                  situation was reversed for Lee except that it is even worse for
                  McClellan in the morale and combat veterans department. For morale the
                  ANV had come off of a summer of victories capped with routing the
                  federal army. For veterans, everyone in the ANV had been in at least
                  one major campaign (the highest percentage being in 3 major battles).

                  For the life of me I can't see what people base the assumption that it
                  is axiomatic that the AotP would destroy the ANV if McClellan had
                  attacked on the 18th. Possible, yes; probable, maybe (I thinks that's
                  pushing it); a given, no way.

                  Jim Rose
                • Anthony W. Turner
                  Jim Rose wrote:
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 9 2:57 PM
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                    Jim Rose wrote:
                    << In the Maryland campaign McClellan had two things going for him:
                    numbers (which he was unaware of his advantage), and supply (his supply
                    situation was far better than Lee's). He had five things going against
                    him: strategic defense (i.e. he was reacting to Lee), tactical offense
                    (if 3-1 isn't an official axiom, it is still better to be in a strong
                    defensive position when fighting), morale (his army had just been
                    routed), combat veterans (13% had never been in combat...) >>

                    Your 13% figure differs, Jim, from the "one quarter" (or 25%) D. Scott
                    Hartwig uses in his essay, "Who Would Not Be a Soldier?" within Gary
                    Gallagher's _The Antietam Campaign_. I'm not the scholar here, and not
                    about to dispute either figure, but feel two such disparate numbers
                    deserve further discussion.

                    Hartwig writes of the AoP: "The field army had an effective strength of
                    approximately 60,000 men. On September 6-7, McClellan assigned
                    twenty-four new regiments to his field army, distributing them equally
                    among his corps, with the Second, Ninth, and Twelfth recieving the
                    largest number. Only eighteen regiments, numbering about 15,000-16,000
                    men, actually accompanied the army, the others being unable to join
                    their assigned brigades before the army moved. In addition, several
                    thousand volunteers who had been recruited for veteran regiments joined
                    their assigned brigades before the army marched, raising the number of
                    recruits in the field to approximately 20,000. This meant nearly
                    one-quarter of McClellan's infantry had undergone little or no
                    training."

                    Comments, Jim and others?

                    Tony Turner
                  • James Rose
                    I don t think that our numbers are really very different. It just takes some explaining. You might call my research the quick and dirty kind. Hartwig was
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 9 7:30 PM
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                      I don't think that our numbers are really very different. It just takes
                      some explaining. You might call my research the quick and dirty kind.
                      Hartwig was talking about the men, while I was simply talking about
                      regiments without reference to how many men were present for duty from
                      each regiment. It stands to reason that the unblooded regiments will
                      have more men present than the veteran units. I would not be surprised
                      if a full 25% of the men at Antietam were under one month service. The
                      following is how I came up with my numbers.

                      I had to do the research on this by myself. Harsh did a good job with
                      the ANV, but he has yet to do the AotP. So I did my research using the
                      criteria in "Sounding the Shallows" for what constitutes major battles.
                      What I did was use the table in "Gleam of Bayonets" for my list of what
                      regiments were in the AotP at the time (from what I understand it is not
                      a perfect list, but it was the best I had). Then using that list I went
                      through Dyer's and created a spreadsheet of the 217 infantry regiments
                      (that is what I was concerned with at the time). The tables were:
                      branch (all infantry), state, regiment #, muster in date, terms of
                      service, corps assign, division assign, brigade assign, previous combat
                      (I included skirmishes for this), and major battles (using Harsh's
                      definitions). It took a really long time to put all this information
                      together, so I wouldn't be surprised if I made any mistakes.

                      Of the 217 regiments in the AotP at this time there were 23 absent from
                      Antietam (Forth corps and Humphrey's division). Of the 194 remaining,
                      17 were mustered in less than one month before (8.8%); 26 had no
                      previous combat experience (13.4%); 40 had never fought a major battle
                      (20.6%); 35 had fought one major battle (18%); 92 had fought two major
                      battles (47.4%); 25 had fought three major battles (12.9%); and 2 had
                      fought 4 major battles (1%).

                      Note that I did not put numbers of men to each regiment. That was
                      beyond the scope of the research I was doing at the time (not to mention
                      that would probably take a year, and I only had a few days). I will say
                      that the absolute most that the new men could make up would be about 22%
                      of the total men in the army in the "effectives" group. It was probably
                      fairly close to this percentage.

                      Jim Rose

                      Anthony W. Turner wrote:

                      >
                      > Your 13% figure differs, Jim, from the "one quarter" (or 25%) D. Scott
                      > Hartwig uses in his essay, "Who Would Not Be a Soldier?" within Gary
                      > Gallagher's _The Antietam Campaign_. I'm not the scholar here, and not
                      > about to dispute either figure, but feel two such disparate numbers
                      > deserve further discussion.
                      >
                      > Hartwig writes of the AoP: "The field army had an effective strength of
                      > approximately 60,000 men. On September 6-7, McClellan assigned
                      > twenty-four new regiments to his field army, distributing them equally
                      > among his corps, with the Second, Ninth, and Twelfth recieving the
                      > largest number. Only eighteen regiments, numbering about 15,000-16,000
                      > men, actually accompanied the army, the others being unable to join
                      > their assigned brigades before the army moved. In addition, several
                      > thousand volunteers who had been recruited for veteran regiments joined
                      > their assigned brigades before the army marched, raising the number of
                      > recruits in the field to approximately 20,000. This meant nearly
                      > one-quarter of McClellan's infantry had undergone little or no
                      > training."
                      >
                      > Comments, Jim and others?
                      >
                      > Tony Turner
                      >
                      >
                    • Marcus Wendel
                      ... Thanks, but I actually have that name on my list. /Marcus http://www.skalman.nu
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 10 12:10 AM
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                        --- In TalkAntietam@y..., James Rose <eodrose@e...> wrote:
                        > I like the site. However you are missing one name for the Civil
                        > War (an important one too). "The War of the Rebellion" which was
                        > the official name given by the U.S. War department.

                        Thanks, but I actually have that name on my list.

                        /Marcus
                        http://www.skalman.nu
                      • Marcus Wendel
                        ... Thanks, I am glad you like it. ... Good point, I will try to rephrase that. /Marcus http://www.skalman.nu
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 10 12:11 AM
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                          --- In TalkAntietam@y..., "Brian Downey" <brdowney@m...> wrote:
                          > Thanks for the link Marcus. You have a very clean, readable site
                          > there - nice introduction to the War between the States.

                          Thanks, I am glad you like it.

                          > On your 1862 timeline, you noted "17 Sep - Union forces defeat the
                          > Confederate forces at Antietam, Maryland."
                          > I would suggest the forces met on that date, but the matter of who
                          > was victorious is open to debate. Also, in the North, the battle
                          > was named for Antietam Creek. The battle actually occurred near
                          > the town of Sharpsburg, Maryland. Those in the South referred to
                          > the battle by the name of the town.

                          Good point, I will try to rephrase that.

                          /Marcus
                          http://www.skalman.nu
                        • Pa128th@aol.com
                          In a message dated 6/9/01 8:54:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, awturner@midtel.net writes:
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 10 5:10 AM
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                            In a message dated 6/9/01 8:54:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                            awturner@... writes:

                            << Hartwig writes of the AoP: "The field army had an effective strength of
                            approximately 60,000 men. On September 6-7, McClellan assigned
                            twenty-four new regiments to his field army, distributing them equally
                            among his corps, with the Second, Ninth, and Twelfth recieving the
                            largest number. Only eighteen regiments, numbering about 15,000-16,000
                            men, actually accompanied the army, the others being unable to join
                            their assigned brigades before the army moved. In addition, several
                            thousand volunteers who had been recruited for veteran regiments joined
                            their assigned brigades before the army marched, raising the number of
                            recruits in the field to approximately 20,000. This meant nearly
                            one-quarter of McClellan's infantry had undergone little or no
                            training."
                            >>
                            Just to give you an example, one brigade of Alpheus Williams division in the
                            the X!! corps had 6 regiments, The 124th, the 125th and the 128th Pa were
                            just about full strength but were green troops and never in combat, the XII
                            corps missed South Mt, arriving there the night of the 14th. The other 3
                            regiments, the 10th Ct, 46th Pa and 28th NY were veterans, but had strengths
                            of about company size, if that.

                            Paula
                          • John Priest
                            I ascertained that 27 of the Federal regiments at Antietam were green - being in the service less than six weeks. Regiments like the 8th Ohio, had been in
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 10 5:36 PM
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                              I ascertained that 27 of the Federal regiments at Antietam were "green" -
                              being in the service less than six weeks. Regiments like the 8th Ohio, had
                              been in actions of some sort but not on the scale of Antietam. Antietam was
                              the first real battle of a large portion of the A of P. It was a very
                              terrible taste of on the job training.

                              Mike Priest


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: James Rose <eodrose@...>
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Saturday, June 09, 2001 10:29 PM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: US Civil War Factbook


                              >I don't think that our numbers are really very different. It just takes
                              >some explaining. You might call my research the quick and dirty kind.
                              >Hartwig was talking about the men, while I was simply talking about
                              >regiments without reference to how many men were present for duty from
                              >each regiment. It stands to reason that the unblooded regiments will
                              >have more men present than the veteran units. I would not be surprised
                              >if a full 25% of the men at Antietam were under one month service. The
                              >following is how I came up with my numbers.
                              >
                              >I had to do the research on this by myself. Harsh did a good job with
                              >the ANV, but he has yet to do the AotP. So I did my research using the
                              >criteria in "Sounding the Shallows" for what constitutes major battles.
                              >What I did was use the table in "Gleam of Bayonets" for my list of what
                              >regiments were in the AotP at the time (from what I understand it is not
                              >a perfect list, but it was the best I had). Then using that list I went
                              >through Dyer's and created a spreadsheet of the 217 infantry regiments
                              >(that is what I was concerned with at the time). The tables were:
                              >branch (all infantry), state, regiment #, muster in date, terms of
                              >service, corps assign, division assign, brigade assign, previous combat
                              >(I included skirmishes for this), and major battles (using Harsh's
                              >definitions). It took a really long time to put all this information
                              >together, so I wouldn't be surprised if I made any mistakes.
                              >
                              >Of the 217 regiments in the AotP at this time there were 23 absent from
                              >Antietam (Forth corps and Humphrey's division). Of the 194 remaining,
                              >17 were mustered in less than one month before (8.8%); 26 had no
                              >previous combat experience (13.4%); 40 had never fought a major battle
                              >(20.6%); 35 had fought one major battle (18%); 92 had fought two major
                              >battles (47.4%); 25 had fought three major battles (12.9%); and 2 had
                              >fought 4 major battles (1%).
                              >
                              >Note that I did not put numbers of men to each regiment. That was
                              >beyond the scope of the research I was doing at the time (not to mention
                              >that would probably take a year, and I only had a few days). I will say
                              >that the absolute most that the new men could make up would be about 22%
                              >of the total men in the army in the "effectives" group. It was probably
                              >fairly close to this percentage.
                              >
                              >Jim Rose
                              >
                              >Anthony W. Turner wrote:
                              >
                              >>
                              >> Your 13% figure differs, Jim, from the "one quarter" (or 25%) D. Scott
                              >> Hartwig uses in his essay, "Who Would Not Be a Soldier?" within Gary
                              >> Gallagher's _The Antietam Campaign_. I'm not the scholar here, and not
                              >> about to dispute either figure, but feel two such disparate numbers
                              >> deserve further discussion.
                              >>
                              >> Hartwig writes of the AoP: "The field army had an effective strength of
                              >> approximately 60,000 men. On September 6-7, McClellan assigned
                              >> twenty-four new regiments to his field army, distributing them equally
                              >> among his corps, with the Second, Ninth, and Twelfth recieving the
                              >> largest number. Only eighteen regiments, numbering about 15,000-16,000
                              >> men, actually accompanied the army, the others being unable to join
                              >> their assigned brigades before the army moved. In addition, several
                              >> thousand volunteers who had been recruited for veteran regiments joined
                              >> their assigned brigades before the army marched, raising the number of
                              >> recruits in the field to approximately 20,000. This meant nearly
                              >> one-quarter of McClellan's infantry had undergone little or no
                              >> training."
                              >>
                              >> Comments, Jim and others?
                              >>
                              >> Tony Turner
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • James Rose
                              ... If you count Humphrey s division and Forth corps the number of Green regiments jumps to 27 on my table. I didn t count them because they were not at
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 10 8:07 PM
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                                John Priest wrote:

                                > I ascertained that 27 of the Federal regiments at Antietam were "green" -
                                > being in the service less than six weeks. Regiments like the 8th Ohio, had
                                > been in actions of some sort but not on the scale of Antietam. Antietam was
                                > the first real battle of a large portion of the A of P. It was a very
                                > terrible taste of on the job training.


                                If you count Humphrey's division and Forth corps the number of "Green"
                                regiments jumps to 27 on my table. I didn't count them because they
                                were not at Antietam on the 17th.

                                Jim Rose
                              • Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine)
                                I don t think everyone believes McClellan would automatically destroy Lee. But with an advantage in manpower, and facing an opponent that had been whacked
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 11 6:59 AM
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                                  I don't think everyone believes McClellan would "automatically" destroy Lee.
                                  But with an advantage in manpower, and facing an opponent that had been
                                  whacked pretty good the day before (and Mac should know this, since _he_ was
                                  whacked pretty thoroughly too), and with his back against a river and
                                  nothing but catastrophe awaiting him should the day go against him, was it
                                  _at least_ worth a try?

                                  I would think even you would have to consider that as a valid choice.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: James Rose [mailto:eodrose@...]
                                  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 9:10 AM
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: US Civil War Factbook




                                  Curt wrote:

                                  > I would suggest:
                                  >
                                  > Mill Springs (A/D 1:1)
                                  >
                                  > Brice's Cross Roads (A/D 0.4/1.0)

                                  I don't have much information on those two battles, but what I do have
                                  does not equate to "battles of annihilation".

                                  At Mills Springs the forces were US 4,000 to CS 4,000. Casualties were
                                  US 262 to CS 529. Crittenden abandoned most of his equipment in the
                                  retreat. True it was a resounding victory for the US forces, but it
                                  stops well short of annihilation. I would like to point out two extra
                                  things about this battle. One, the scale of operations is significantly
                                  much smaller than I was thinking about (when I say army I generally
                                  refer to at least 20,000 men). Scale of operations does make a
                                  difference. Two, if what I read about many of Crittenden's men having
                                  weapons that didn't work is correct, then the odds change. A man cannot
                                  be considered a fighting effective if his weapon doesn't work.

                                  Brice's Cross Roads is a much better example (although the problem of
                                  scale is still there). The forces were US 8,100 to CS 3,500
                                  (interestingly at 2.3:1 this is close to the superiority that many
                                  people believe McClellan had over Lee). Casualties were US 2,612 to CS
                                  493. It was a rout, massive one sided victory (question are there any
                                  victories that were more one sided during the war), and just an all
                                  round good day for Forrest. However, Sturgis still made it to safety
                                  with the bulk of his army. I would like to point out one thing about
                                  this battle. The CS had Forrest. McClellan was many things, but a
                                  tactical genius was not one of them.

                                  I was looking up Nashville (yes it was the benchmark), and one
                                  conclusion jumps out at me. The difference between being routed and
                                  annihilation has a lot to do with the support structure of the army in
                                  question. As near as I can tell the only reason why Hood's army was
                                  "destroyed" was because the South could no longer recover from a massive
                                  defeat. This was not the situation in 1862.

                                  > As I have attempted to demonstrate elsewhere, in discussion of the
                                  > purported 3-1 rule, there is no real correlation of raw numbers of
                                  > personnel to success in battle.

                                  If this is true (which in general I agree) then why do people
                                  automatically assume that McClellan would defeat and destroy Lee? From
                                  every account I have read and heard Lee is considered a much better
                                  tactical commander than McClellan. I don't deny that McClellan might
                                  have been able to destroy the ANV. What I deny is that it is a given
                                  that had McClellan attacked on the 18th he would have destroyed the
                                  ANV. If anything Brice's Cross Roads shows that it could have gone the
                                  other way.

                                  In the Maryland campaign McClellan had two things going for him: numbers
                                  (which he was unaware of his advantage), and supply (his supply
                                  situation was far better than Lee's). He had five things going against
                                  him: strategic defense (i.e. he was reacting to Lee), tactical offense
                                  (if 3-1 isn't an official axiom, it is still better to be in a strong
                                  defensive position when fighting), morale (his army had just been
                                  routed), combat veterans (13% had never been in combat, and many of
                                  those who had been in only one major campaign got their experience at
                                  2nd Manassas), and tactical command ( the Lee/Longstreet/Jackson team is
                                  considered far better than the McClellan/Burnside/Porter team). The
                                  situation was reversed for Lee except that it is even worse for
                                  McClellan in the morale and combat veterans department. For morale the
                                  ANV had come off of a summer of victories capped with routing the
                                  federal army. For veterans, everyone in the ANV had been in at least
                                  one major campaign (the highest percentage being in 3 major battles).

                                  For the life of me I can't see what people base the assumption that it
                                  is axiomatic that the AotP would destroy the ANV if McClellan had
                                  attacked on the 18th. Possible, yes; probable, maybe (I thinks that's
                                  pushing it); a given, no way.

                                  Jim Rose






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                                • James Rose
                                  Perhaps saying everyone was a bit strong, but overall that is my impression of how most people judge McClellan s actions during the Maryland campaign. The
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 11 12:19 PM
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                                    Perhaps saying "everyone" was a bit strong, but overall that is my
                                    impression of how most people judge McClellan's actions during the
                                    Maryland campaign. The seize on their vision of what might have been,
                                    and lose sight of what McClellan did accomplish.

                                    As to the specifics of your question (which was phrased quite
                                    differently than I normally see it), I agree that it would have been
                                    worth a try. That is speaking from the position of hindsight, and
                                    knowing what I know, attacking on the 18th probably would have been a
                                    good idea. While admitting that attacking might have been the best
                                    course of action, that does not mean that I believe what McClellan did
                                    do was wrong. I think that Harsh goes into the best detail of how the
                                    situation looked to McClellan after the battle in TATF (Murfin does
                                    little more than try to show that McClellan was little more than a
                                    whinny boy, and Sears is not much better).

                                    Looking at the situation on the evening of the 17th as it appeared to
                                    McClellan his decision is not unreasonable. In the first place
                                    McClellan did intend to attack on the 18th, but circumstances delayed it
                                    for 24 hours. McClellan was unaware of his advantage in manpower. All
                                    of the intelligence reports put the ANV at having a 25% advantage in
                                    men, and nothing that happened during the 17th could have changed that
                                    opinion downward. The AotP was repulsed at every point with 25-33%
                                    losses (it was worse among the green troops). The ANV's line was never
                                    broken fully open anywhere. The ANV was "wacked", but so was the AotP.
                                    Any attack on the 18th could only be done with the Fifth and Sixth
                                    corps'. The other corps' were unable to conduct offensive operations
                                    (at least that is what the corps' commanders told McClellan). Of those
                                    two corps' around 25% of the men had less than one month in service.
                                    Then there is the ammo situation. Small arms ammo was critically short,
                                    and the AotP was completely out of Parrot ammo. Because of the
                                    destruction of the B&O bridge the AotP would not be resupplied until the
                                    evening of the 18th. Finally any attack would again give Lee the
                                    advantage of defense. At best I don't see how McClellan could have
                                    believed that any attack on the 18th would be more than a toss up as to
                                    who would win.

                                    So the question becomes: should McClellan have taken that gamble and
                                    attacked on the 18th? Considering what McClellan believe his duty to be
                                    I would say that he was unjustified in taking the gamble that it
                                    appeared to be. McClellan's first duty was the protection of
                                    Washington, and the second was to end the invasion of Maryland (down
                                    around the end of the list is the destruction of the ANV). By standing
                                    fast on the 18th, and preparing to attack on the 19th McClellan served
                                    both those duties. Lee had three options. He could attack, stand, or
                                    leave. McClellan was ready for any counterattack, he would attack on
                                    the 19th if Lee stood, and the only place for Lee to go was back to
                                    Virginia. On the other hand if McClellan had attacked and lost, then
                                    Lee might have been able to revive his invasion (unlikely in hindsight
                                    no matter the outcome of the battle). That would mean a failure of both
                                    the primary and secondary missions. Quite simply if McClellan had
                                    attacked on the 18th he would have risked everything for the possibility
                                    of gaining relatively little.

                                    Jim Rose

                                    Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine) wrote:

                                    > I don't think everyone believes McClellan would "automatically" destroy Lee.
                                    > But with an advantage in manpower, and facing an opponent that had been
                                    > whacked pretty good the day before (and Mac should know this, since _he_ was
                                    > whacked pretty thoroughly too), and with his back against a river and
                                    > nothing but catastrophe awaiting him should the day go against him, was it
                                    > _at least_ worth a try?
                                    >
                                    > I would think even you would have to consider that as a valid choice.
                                  • Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine)
                                    Not to entirely rehash this ever-so-familiar topic, but a couple of points: 1. You carefully explain all the reasons Mac had for not attacking on the 18th, yet
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 11 12:33 PM
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                                      Not to entirely rehash this ever-so-familiar topic, but a couple of points:

                                      1. You carefully explain all the reasons Mac had for not attacking on the
                                      18th, yet state that he intended on attacking anyway. Huh?

                                      2. Why did the reasons for not attacking on the 18th not apply to the 17th
                                      as well?

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: James Rose [mailto:eodrose@...]
                                      Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 2:19 PM
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: US Civil War Factbook


                                      Perhaps saying "everyone" was a bit strong, but overall that is my
                                      impression of how most people judge McClellan's actions during the
                                      Maryland campaign. The seize on their vision of what might have been,
                                      and lose sight of what McClellan did accomplish.

                                      As to the specifics of your question (which was phrased quite
                                      differently than I normally see it), I agree that it would have been
                                      worth a try. That is speaking from the position of hindsight, and
                                      knowing what I know, attacking on the 18th probably would have been a
                                      good idea. While admitting that attacking might have been the best
                                      course of action, that does not mean that I believe what McClellan did
                                      do was wrong. I think that Harsh goes into the best detail of how the
                                      situation looked to McClellan after the battle in TATF (Murfin does
                                      little more than try to show that McClellan was little more than a
                                      whinny boy, and Sears is not much better).

                                      Looking at the situation on the evening of the 17th as it appeared to
                                      McClellan his decision is not unreasonable. In the first place
                                      McClellan did intend to attack on the 18th, but circumstances delayed it
                                      for 24 hours. McClellan was unaware of his advantage in manpower. All
                                      of the intelligence reports put the ANV at having a 25% advantage in
                                      men, and nothing that happened during the 17th could have changed that
                                      opinion downward. The AotP was repulsed at every point with 25-33%
                                      losses (it was worse among the green troops). The ANV's line was never
                                      broken fully open anywhere. The ANV was "wacked", but so was the AotP.
                                      Any attack on the 18th could only be done with the Fifth and Sixth
                                      corps'. The other corps' were unable to conduct offensive operations
                                      (at least that is what the corps' commanders told McClellan). Of those
                                      two corps' around 25% of the men had less than one month in service.
                                      Then there is the ammo situation. Small arms ammo was critically short,
                                      and the AotP was completely out of Parrot ammo. Because of the
                                      destruction of the B&O bridge the AotP would not be resupplied until the
                                      evening of the 18th. Finally any attack would again give Lee the
                                      advantage of defense. At best I don't see how McClellan could have
                                      believed that any attack on the 18th would be more than a toss up as to
                                      who would win.

                                      So the question becomes: should McClellan have taken that gamble and
                                      attacked on the 18th? Considering what McClellan believe his duty to be
                                      I would say that he was unjustified in taking the gamble that it
                                      appeared to be. McClellan's first duty was the protection of
                                      Washington, and the second was to end the invasion of Maryland (down
                                      around the end of the list is the destruction of the ANV). By standing
                                      fast on the 18th, and preparing to attack on the 19th McClellan served
                                      both those duties. Lee had three options. He could attack, stand, or
                                      leave. McClellan was ready for any counterattack, he would attack on
                                      the 19th if Lee stood, and the only place for Lee to go was back to
                                      Virginia. On the other hand if McClellan had attacked and lost, then
                                      Lee might have been able to revive his invasion (unlikely in hindsight
                                      no matter the outcome of the battle). That would mean a failure of both
                                      the primary and secondary missions. Quite simply if McClellan had
                                      attacked on the 18th he would have risked everything for the possibility
                                      of gaining relatively little.

                                      Jim Rose

                                      Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine) wrote:

                                      > I don't think everyone believes McClellan would "automatically" destroy
                                      Lee.
                                      > But with an advantage in manpower, and facing an opponent that had been
                                      > whacked pretty good the day before (and Mac should know this, since _he_
                                      was
                                      > whacked pretty thoroughly too), and with his back against a river and
                                      > nothing but catastrophe awaiting him should the day go against him, was it
                                      > _at least_ worth a try?
                                      >
                                      > I would think even you would have to consider that as a valid choice.






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                                    • James Rose
                                      ... Is there a problem with there being a disparity between what McClellan wanted to do and what he felt he was capable of doing? During the evening of the
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 11 1:32 PM
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                                        Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine) wrote:

                                        > Not to entirely rehash this ever-so-familiar topic, but a couple of points:
                                        >
                                        > 1. You carefully explain all the reasons Mac had for not attacking on the
                                        > 18th, yet state that he intended on attacking anyway. Huh?

                                        Is there a problem with there being a disparity between what McClellan
                                        wanted to do and what he felt he was capable of doing? During the
                                        evening of the 17th McClellan had determined to attack the following
                                        day. The decision not to attack was an evolution of thinking that came
                                        with the information he had. The situation didn't change, but
                                        McClellan's understanding of it did. After thinking it through he
                                        determined to postpone the attack until the 19th. Its called "changing
                                        your mind", and people do it from time to time.

                                        >
                                        > 2. Why did the reasons for not attacking on the 18th not apply to the 17th
                                        > as well?

                                        I would imagine that two important things looked different on the
                                        morning of the 18th then they did on the evening of the 17th. First, I
                                        don't think that McClellan was aware that the ammunition would be
                                        delayed until the morning of the 18th. Second, McClellan probably
                                        thought that after marching all night Humphrey's and Couch's men would
                                        not be in very good condition to conduct an offensive. Since they
                                        constituted close to half of McClellan's available force for the attack,
                                        the thought of using them right then may have looked a bit different
                                        than in the abstract.

                                        Jim Rose
                                      • Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine)
                                        ... Well, yeah. On the face of it, you give very good reasons for not pursuing offensive actions -- in fact, with the lack of ammo, staying put might not even
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 11 2:55 PM
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                                          >Is there a problem with there being a disparity between what McClellan
                                          >wanted to do and what he felt he was capable of doing?

                                          Well, yeah. On the face of it, you give very good reasons for not pursuing
                                          offensive actions -- in fact, with the lack of ammo, staying put might not
                                          even have been such a good idea. With said reasons, he shouldn't even have
                                          been considering it under any circumstances. But he was, and it comes
                                          closely to sounding like you want to play it both ways: He doesn't fight,
                                          but deserves credit for at least thinking about it.

                                          >I would imagine that two important things looked different on the
                                          >morning of the 18th then they did on the evening of the 17th.

                                          I was talking about the morning of the 17th -- if it was a good time to
                                          attack then, what changed overnight other than slightly delayed ammo? If
                                          there were reasons not to attack on the 18th, I would think they'd apply to
                                          the 17th even more.
                                        • NJ Rebel
                                          Jim-- I cut your most excellent post to shorten the bandwith for this message but, in essence, I am in agreement with you on your statements. However, I
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 11 6:24 PM
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                                            Jim--

                                            I cut your most excellent post to shorten the bandwith for this
                                            message but, in essence, I am in agreement with you on your
                                            statements.

                                            However, I believe there is one very valuable thing that Mac did
                                            with respects to Lee that most historians either overlook or
                                            simply did not take the time to consider. Harsh goes over this
                                            from the viewpoint of what Lee could or could not have done on
                                            September 18th in TATF. Essentially, by remaining "in place"
                                            where he was on September 18th, Mac effectively shut the door for
                                            Lee to continue his Maryland campaign. Hence a large part of the
                                            reason for the ANV retreat to Shepherdstown.

                                            I wonder, too, if Carman says anything about Mac not attacking on
                                            September 18th vis Lee and any plans Lee might have had. IIRC,
                                            Lee was all for attacking on September 18th, but his main
                                            subordinate commanders were unanimously against it.

                                            Hope this helps.

                                            Your humble servant,
                                            Gerry Mayers
                                            Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                                            Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                                            "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                                            on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                                            Edward Lee
                                          • James Rose
                                            ... McClellan had to stay put. It was absolutely imperative that Lee not be allowed to revive the campaign. As for the ammo situation, if I understand it
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 11 8:05 PM
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                                              Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine) wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Well, yeah. On the face of it, you give very good reasons for not pursuing
                                              > offensive actions -- in fact, with the lack of ammo, staying put might not
                                              > even have been such a good idea. With said reasons, he shouldn't even have
                                              > been considering it under any circumstances. But he was, and it comes
                                              > closely to sounding like you want to play it both ways: He doesn't fight,
                                              > but deserves credit for at least thinking about it.

                                              McClellan had to stay put. It was absolutely imperative that Lee not be
                                              allowed to revive the campaign. As for the ammo situation, if I
                                              understand it correctly McClellan thought (on the 17th) that he would be
                                              resupplied in time for the attack on the 18th. That didn't happen, and
                                              the shipment was delayed until the evening. If you don't want to give
                                              McClellan credit for intending to attack on the 18th that's fine. It
                                              doesn't actually matter to me. I personally think that McClellan
                                              answered the questions about moral cowardice, timidity, and
                                              unwillingness to fight on the 17th. The fact that McClellan thought
                                              about attacking on the 18th and then changed his mind doesn't mean
                                              anything other than he changed his mind.

                                              >
                                              > I was talking about the morning of the 17th -- if it was a good time to
                                              > attack then, what changed overnight other than slightly delayed ammo? If
                                              > there were reasons not to attack on the 18th, I would think they'd apply to
                                              > the 17th even more.
                                              >
                                              Let me see. What changed during the day of the 17th. Let's start with
                                              10,000 casualties and go from there. On the morning of the 17th the
                                              AotP had 6 intact corps' that were capable of offensive operations. By
                                              evening McClellan was reduced to two corps' capable of offensive
                                              operations. In the morning there was a full load-out of ammo. By
                                              evening there were critical shortages (heavy fighting tends to use up ammo).

                                              There were many reasons not to attack on the 17th. I can think of
                                              several with straining myself. However, not fighting Lee was out of the
                                              question. If McClellan did not bring Lee to battle in Maryland it would
                                              have been as damaging, or even more so, than actually losing the AotP.
                                              McClellan had to fight Lee at some point, and thanks in part to S.O. 191
                                              McClellan thought that the ANV was still separated (at least somewhat).
                                              That means that on the 17th McClellan thought that the odds were
                                              probably as good as they were going to get. Therefore, he attacked.
                                              There were many reasons not to attack, but more overriding ones to
                                              attack on the 17th. By evening those overriding reasons had been muted
                                              by the battle (i.e. a bloodied ANV leaving Maryland is very different
                                              than an unscratched ANV leaving Maryland).

                                              Jim Rose
                                            • Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine)
                                              ... Let me see. I guess all the Yankee bullets missed their marks. Where was this paralyzing lack of ammo in all of our other discussions? Has Dr. Harsh
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 12 6:25 AM
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                                                >Let me see. What changed during the day of the 17th. Let's start with
                                                >10,000 casualties and go from there.

                                                Let me see. I guess all the Yankee bullets missed their marks.

                                                Where was this paralyzing lack of ammo in all of our other discussions? Has
                                                Dr. Harsh written another book?
                                              • James Rose
                                                ... You do realize that McClellan had no real idea of how badly the Confederates were hurt during the battle. He could make an educated guess, but that is it.
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jun 12 2:02 PM
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                                                  Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine) wrote:
                                                  Let me see.  What changed during the day of the 17th.  Let's start with
                                                  10,000 casualties and go from there.

                                                  Let me see. I guess all the Yankee bullets missed their marks.
                                                  You do realize that McClellan had no real idea of how badly the Confederates were hurt during the battle.  He could make an educated guess, but that is it.  Basically what you are saying sounds like a paraphrase from a famous politician that goes something like this "Yes your troops are hurt, but so are they.  You are all hurt together."  McClellan understood something that apparently a lot of people miss.  It is easier to defend than it is to attack.  So on the 18th McClellan would only be able to attack with part of his army, but Lee would be able to defend with his entire army.


                                                  Where was this paralyzing lack of ammo in all of our other discussions? Has
                                                  Dr. Harsh written another book?

                                                  Have you read "Taken at the Flood" yet?  As for our other discussions, this is the first time I've been on these groups that I have joined in on a discussion of why McClellan didn't attack on the 18th.  That is why I've never mentioned it.  I've also never said that the ammo situation was "paralyzing".  That word has connotations that do not fit in this instance.  I said that he was critically short of ammo.  Sears acknowledges that lack of Parrot rounds even as he dismisses it as meaningless.  I think that the loss of the 20lb Parrots is far from meaningless.  They represented over 10% of the artillery pieces, and as the largest caliber they probably represented a higher percentage in actual combat power.  Considering that artillery is the one branch that McClellan knows is superior in all respects to the Confederates, such a loss is far from trivial.

                                                  Jim Rose


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