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Re: [TalkAntietam] NH at Antietam:

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  • Brian Morris
    John Bachelder did not unilaterally create the rules for monument placement although he was a part of the committee that did. While John Bachelder at the time
    Message 1 of 49 , Mar 6, 2005
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      John Bachelder did not unilaterally create the rules for monument placement
      although he was a part of the committee that did. While John Bachelder at
      the time did have a great deal of influence due to his early study of the
      battle, the rules for monument placement were created by a committee made up
      of mostly veterans.

      The 72nd Pennsylvania is an interesting case. They wanted their monument at
      the wall and the committee didn't as the 72nd didn't actually fight at the
      wall. They wanted their monument near where the road currently runs. The
      72nd ended up buying private land in front of the wall and said if they
      didn't get it at the wall they would place their monument in front of it. In
      the end they got it at the wall. They are also the ones who paid for the
      Armistead monument and the reason it's father upslope than it really should
      be. The Armistead marker is suppose to designate the spot where Armistead
      fell and thus sort of the high watermark of the charge. It makes the 72nd
      look a lot better if it looks like the Confederates made it a good 100
      upslope from the wall than if you put it 10 feet from the wall which is
      likely where Armistead fell.

      Mind you there are monuments in the wrong place. The 147th New York sits
      near the RR Cut on the east side of the road. However their stand (largely
      forgotten today but one of the more amazing of the battle) was actually a
      good 200 yards west of that location. Problem is that land was in privates
      hands at the time so the 147th, much to their dismay, had to have their
      monument much farther back than their actual battleline.

      Brian


      >
      > Brian,
      > I can not speak for all monuments on all battlefields
      > but the monuments at Gettysburg were I believe set in
      > line of battle by then John Bachelder, Park Historian,
      > not by all of the Veteran regimental survivor associations
      > or those that fought there. There may be some examples at
      > Gettysburg that may go against this as the 72nd PVI went
      > to court as to the placement of their monument at/near the
      > wall. They felt that Mr. Bachelder was placing the monument
      > in the wrong spot, hence the court battle. Again I am not sure
      > if this is true on some , most or all CW battlefields and if
      > the same approach was followed.
      > This topic was raised after Scott Hartwig gave a talk to
      > us at the G.A.R. Museum Dinner. His talk was on the Philadelphia
      > Brigade.
      >
      > My best to you,
      >
      > Eric J. Schmincke
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Brian Morris" <ironbrigade@...>
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] NH at Antietam:
      > Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:36:46 -0600
      >
      >
      >
      > <html><body>
      >
      >
      >
      > <tt>
      > I won't blast you but I will disagree on several points.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > Oates unfortunately was a man prone to exaggeration. In his official
      report<BR>
      > after the battle he claimed that he was force to retreat after being
      flanked<BR>
      > by two regiments that atacked him on his right when in fact it was only
      the<BR>
      > men of Company B and a handful of Berdan's sharpshooters. He also later
      to<BR>
      > the Gettysburg Battlefield Commission made the rather absurd claim that
      he<BR>
      > broke through the 20th Maine's lines and attacked the rear of the 83rd<BR>
      > Pennsylvania.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > The rules of monument placement on battlefields were made by the men
      who<BR>
      > fought there. They earned that right. To disregard their wishes simply<BR>
      > because they are now dead is simply wrong in my opinion.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > As for Civil War preservationists bending a little, I much disagree.<BR>
      > Everytime Civil War preservationists bend more battlefield land is
      turned<BR>
      > into strip malls and fast food resteraunts.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > Part of what makes Antietam so wonderful today is it is so well
      preserved.<BR>
      > The purpose of our National Battlefield Parks are to preserve our
      history<BR>
      > for future generations. Preservation does not mean adding things to them
      or<BR>
      > making them into better tourist attractions. They are not there to be
      the<BR>
      > toys of modern day politicians trying to get their names in the paper
      or<BR>
      > civil war groups who feel that their favorite regiment of the war didn't
      get<BR>
      > the monument they think they should have 120 years ago. They are a part
      of<BR>
      > our history to be preserved as best we can. To me the putting up of
      new<BR>
      > monuments at Antietam and other battlefields, especially in violation of
      the<BR>
      > rules set up by the men who fought there, is the equivelent to someone<BR>
      > carving their initials into the Apollo 11 Capsule. It is nothing but
      fancy<BR>
      > goverment approved graffiti.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > Brian<BR>
      > <BR>
      > > There is also controversy about placing and locating Confederate
      monuments<BR>
      > at Gettysburg. Even Oates wanted to pay for a tablet to honor his
      fallen<BR>
      > brother and could not do it. Seems like the committee did not want to
      show<BR>
      > that the Confederates had gotten behind the Union line. Sounds political
      to<BR>
      > me just like the argument of placing monuments today. The relatively
      recent<BR>
      > Maryland monument is wonderful as monuments go and just by looking it
      brings<BR>
      > home the impact of brother vs brother, neighbor vs neighbor. Too bad its
      in<BR>
      > a bad place and should be on Culp's hill.<BR>
      > ><BR>
      > > well I'll probably get blasted for this message but sometimes you
      must<BR>
      > bend a little. The more people that visit the battlefield the more
      interest<BR>
      > and donations that are received to purchase more land like around
      Antietam.<BR>
      > The vets put up the monuments to be viewed by all, not by just those with
      an<BR>
      > interest in the war, and monuments bring them to the field.<BR>
      > > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
      > > From: Brian Morris<BR>
      > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<BR>
      > > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:22 PM<BR>
      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] NH at Antietam:<BR>
      > ><BR>
      > ><BR>
      > > If the New Hampshire monument is allowed it will unfortunately be<BR>
      > followed<BR>
      > > by other monuments. Perhaps many more. There are a good dozen or
      more<BR>
      > groups<BR>
      > > who are planning to push for their own monuments so this isn't
      just<BR>
      > about<BR>
      > > one monument but perhaps a score more for Gettysburg, Antietam and
      other<BR>
      > > battlefields.<BR>
      > ><BR>
      > > The problem is the political trap that this proposal is putting<BR>
      > politicians<BR>
      > > in. Nobody wants to be seen at voting against a memorial. Looks bad
      when<BR>
      > > your opponent can say "and my opponent voted against allowing a
      memorial<BR>
      > to<BR>
      > > honor the sacrifice of our good men in uniform".<BR>
      > ><BR>
      > > We've had discussions on this in the Gettysburg Discussion Group.
      These<BR>
      > > monuments are often called Hobby Monuments but I prefer to call
      them<BR>
      > > graffiti by monument. People want to get their favorite<BR>
      > > regiment/state/soldier/whathaveyou a monument on their favorite<BR>
      > battlefield.<BR>
      > > However I always like to use the line from the third Indiana Jones
      film<BR>
      > that<BR>
      > > goes "Do you seek the grail for his glory or for yours". Unfortunately
      I<BR>
      > > think in the case of the New Hampshire monument like many other<BR>
      > proposals<BR>
      > > it's more of a case of wanting the thrill of placing a monument on
      their<BR>
      > > favorite battlefield that can never be removed. They feel it gives
      them<BR>
      > a<BR>
      > > closer connection to the field. Graffiti by monument.<BR>
      > ><BR>
      > > The job of this and future generations is not to decide that the<BR>
      > veterans of<BR>
      > > the battle didn't do a good enough job putting memorials on the<BR>
      > battlefield<BR>
      > > so we have to add our own. Our job is to preserve the battlefields
      as<BR>
      > they<BR>
      > > were left to us. We can preserve and restore but we should never
      have<BR>
      > the<BR>
      > > ego to think that we have the right to add. There is a saying in
      cave<BR>
      > > exploring. Leave nothing but footprints. Take nothing but
      pictures.<BR>
      > Future<BR>
      > > generations should see Gettysburg, Antietam and other battlefields
      as<BR>
      > close<BR>
      > > as we can to how the veterans intended and not even know we were
      ever<BR>
      > there.<BR>
      > ><BR>
      > > Brian<BR>
      > ><BR>
      > ><BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > > No there are no NH monumnets at Antietam, YET! The state is
      pushing<BR>
      > > legislation and has plans to erect a new monument near Burnside
      Bridge.<BR>
      > > Myself, along with the majority of the Directors of SHAF, think it is
      a<BR>
      > > terrible idea to put new monuments on the any battlefield. I'll
      keep<BR>
      > you<BR>
      > > posted.<BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.<BR>
      > > > Professor of History<BR>
      > > > Hagerstown Community College<BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > > >>> rotbaron@... 3/3/2005 10:25:46 AM >>><BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > > Are there any memorials at Antietam to New Hampshire units
      (tablets,<BR>
      > > markers, monuments)? I am having hard time tracking moves of 6th and
      9th<BR>
      > NH<BR>
      > > east of the creek. More on that later.<BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > > I'm almost done my summary of the action east of Burnside's
      Bridge,<BR>
      > and I<BR>
      > > do appreciate the great assistance I've been given by this group.<BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > > One question remains unanswered: what two companies of the 11th
      Ohio<BR>
      > > opened the fight?<BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > > Tom Shay<BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > ><BR>
      > > ><BR>
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    • Scott Mingus
      ... Steve, I live in York County, PA, and work not far from Hanover. There s not much left there to preserve. Since much of the fighting occurred in the town s
      Message 49 of 49 , Mar 16, 2005
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        > > Steve Bockmiller wrote:

        > > > Falling Waters, WV (currently in the local news)
        > > > Hanover, PA (if someone was inclined to try)
        > > > Shepherdstown, WV (currently subject of


        Steve,

        I live in York County, PA, and work not far from Hanover. There's not
        much left there to preserve. Since much of the fighting occurred in
        the town's streets or in fields immediately adjacent to Hanover,
        almost all the open land that saw combat is gone (long since
        swallowed up by houses on streets named Stuart Avenue, etc.). One
        last vista from the Keller farm where the horse artillery lobbed
        shells at Hanover is now gone as of last summer (new construction).
        Even the small ditch that Stuart and Blackford leaped on horseback is
        in the backyards of private homes. Some of the routes that Stuart
        took to manuever are still pastoral, but I question how many more
        years this will be true.

        Mt. Olive Cemetery (CSA gun position and Hampton's line) is
        surrounded by houses, the Union gun positions north of town on the
        heights are indiscernible from the rows of houses, and the Rice farm
        is no longer a farm, nor is the Forney farm.

        Downtown, there is a nice statue (The Picket), a couple cannons
        (including Parrott gun tube #1), some other ACW displays and plaques,
        and a couple state historical markers. One wall plaque honors Custer.
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