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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain

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  • richard@rcroker.com
    Tim, I would say, so sad, but that s not enough. I must say that it has never been a perfect place to visit, but while researching my book I was glad to be
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 28 9:09 AM
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      Tim,

      I would say, "so sad," but that's not enough. I must say that it has never
      been a perfect place to visit, but while researching my book I was glad to
      be able to stand there and look down onto the valley floor and invision what
      Hill must have seen when he first arrived.

      The Reno and Garland monuments will remain won't they? At least give us
      that.

      Richard Croker
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "tjrhys62" <tjreesecg@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:10 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain


      > South Mountain is being developed as we speak! Most damage is
      > occurring at Turner's Gap where most of the land along D.H. Hill's
      > left flank has been parceled out for sale. Lots are already selling
      > along Dahlgren and Frosttown roads. The latter was recently repaved
      > to accommodate new home builders. Fox's Gap is in better shape, but
      > hopelessly entangled in a complex mosaic of public/private
      > ownership, unlikely to be unraveled. Whoever came up with the idea
      > of S. Mtn. State Battlefield was obviously hallucinating. It's a
      > latter-day tragedy. And preservation easements, in the long run,
      > won't be worth the paper they're written on, a band aid over a gash.
      >
      > Tim Reese
      >
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, <richard@r...> wrote:
      > > I understand that South Mountain is in danger of being developed.
      > True?
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "James W. Durney" <james2044@h...>
      > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:33 PM
      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Books in my Library
      > >
      > >
      > > > Thanks Much! Last time I missed it and want to see the gaps
      > this
      > > > time.
      > > >
      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@f...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > Dear James,
      > > > >
      > > > > Simple enough. When you leave the Antietam NBP and get back on
      > > > > Maryland State Rte 65 (left out of the Antietam NBP parkig lot,
      > > > > then left at the stop sign at SR 65), go down into Sharpsburg.
      > At
      > > > > the crossroads you will see a Mobil station on your far right
      > and
      > > > > a Lutheran church on your immediate left. The west-east street
      > is
      > > > > Main Street in town and becomes what once was the Boonsboro
      > > > > Turnpike out of town. Take this road into Boonsboro, and at the
      > > > > lgith in Boonsboro, make a right on Alt 40. This is the old
      > > > > National Turnpike. Go east on Alt 40... in about ten minutes or
      > > > > less you will be at Turner's Gap which is part of South
      > Mountain.
      > > > >
      > > > > Hope this helps.
      > > > >
      > > > > I remain,
      > > > > Your Humble and Obdt. Servant,
      > > > > G. E. "Gerry" Mayers
      > > > > Corporal,
      > > > > Confederate Signal Corps,
      > > > > Longstreet's Corps
      > > > >
      > > > > "It is Well that WAR is so Terrible;
      > > > > else we shall grow too fond of it."
      > > > > --Robert E. Lee
      > > > >
      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > From: "Mary Hawthorne" <tbonemusic@C...>
      > > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:28 AM
      > > > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Books in my Library
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > >From the looks of my map you will need to get to rt 67.
      > there
      > > > > is a short cut
      > > > > > but no rt number on the map. If you ask at the visitor's
      > center
      > > > > I bet they
      > > > > > have a map printed already.
      > > > > > Mary
      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > From: "James W. Durney" <james2044@h...>
      > > > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:45 PM
      > > > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Books in my Library
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Another question how do I get from Antietam to South
      > > > > Mountain?
      > > > > > > I expect to be there in late June.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > James2044
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
      > --
      > > > > -----------------
      > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > >
      > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam/
      > > > > >
      > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > >
      > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > Terms
      > > > > of Service.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Rawlings, Kevin
      Richard, The Reno and Garland monuments art not going anywhere. The Garland monumment is on Central Maryland Heritage League land and the state now owns the
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 28 11:21 AM
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        Richard,

        The Reno and Garland monuments art not going anywhere. The Garland monumment
        is on Central Maryland Heritage League land and the state now owns the
        Daniel Wise home site and the Appalachain Trail owns much of the right of
        way through there. Much of the land at Fox's Gap are is own by one group or
        the other or development rights have been bought up by the state. At
        Turner's Gap as Tim Reese described the Frostown Road are is under
        developement attack but the Alt 40 up the gap is protected.

        Kevin Rawlings
      • richard@rcroker.com
        Thanks Kevin -- I feel a littel better. ... From: Rawlings, Kevin To: Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 28 11:49 AM
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          Thanks Kevin -- I feel a littel better.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Rawlings, Kevin" <kevin.rawlings@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:21 PM
          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain


          > Richard,
          >
          > The Reno and Garland monuments art not going anywhere. The Garland
          monumment
          > is on Central Maryland Heritage League land and the state now owns the
          > Daniel Wise home site and the Appalachain Trail owns much of the right of
          > way through there. Much of the land at Fox's Gap are is own by one group
          or
          > the other or development rights have been bought up by the state. At
          > Turner's Gap as Tim Reese described the Frostown Road are is under
          > developement attack but the Alt 40 up the gap is protected.
          >
          > Kevin Rawlings
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • tjrhys62
          Richard, Your South Mountain question seems to have resurrected naïve assumptions about cooperative, incongruent battlefield ownership, its purported
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 28 12:59 PM
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            Richard,

            Your South Mountain question seems to have resurrected naïve
            assumptions about cooperative, incongruent battlefield ownership,
            its purported preservation, and the likelihood of achieving any
            symbiosis toward accessible park status. Complex questions require
            far more than simple answers, given the disparate groups involved
            possessed of wholly divergent if not incompatible objectives. Pay no
            attention to that man behind the curtain.

            Instead may I direct your attention to http://cwbn.blogspot.com/ for
            insightful investigation into the matter, postings for 3/5, 3/10,
            3/12, 3/16. This is an intermittent thread which you will easily
            pick up, a welcome breath of candor.

            Also, if you seek honest definition of "South Mountain"
            battlefields, and the political chicanery at work behind the scenes,
            have a look at http://home.earthlink.net/~tjreesecg/id6.html. All is
            not as it appears.

            Having waded through all this, then see http://mlis.state.md.us/PDF-
            Documents/2000rs/bills/hb/hb1183t.pdf for the official language of
            what South Mountain "Fake" Battlefield is and is not. It's icing
            without a cake which children naturally prefer.

            While the kiddies play, the house burns. Santa can't get down this
            chimney.

            Tim

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, <richard@r...> wrote:
            > Thanks Kevin -- I feel a littel better.
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Rawlings, Kevin" <kevin.rawlings@s...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:21 PM
            > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain
            >
            >
            > > Richard,
            > >
            > > The Reno and Garland monuments art not going anywhere. The
            Garland
            > monumment
            > > is on Central Maryland Heritage League land and the state now
            owns the
            > > Daniel Wise home site and the Appalachain Trail owns much of the
            right of
            > > way through there. Much of the land at Fox's Gap are is own by
            one group
            > or
            > > the other or development rights have been bought up by the
            state. At
            > > Turner's Gap as Tim Reese described the Frostown Road are is
            under
            > > developement attack but the Alt 40 up the gap is protected.
            > >
            > > Kevin Rawlings
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
          • Rawlings, Kevin
            Tim, No one is being dishonest if you are referring to me. There is some truth to what you say and I agree with you about the state, political and private
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 28 2:03 PM
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              Tim,

              No one is being dishonest if you are referring to me. There is some truth to
              what you say and I agree with you about the state, political and private
              concerns of the South Mountain battlefields. His question about the Reno and
              Garland monuments being moved, as far as I know, there are no plans afoot to
              move either unless you know something I do not. Also, at this point in time
              I am not associated with any group except Save Historic Antietam Foundation.
              I left CMHL awhile back because of a plethora of back stabbing politics and
              lip service in the name of battlefield preservation in the board of
              directors' current make up. Further, I have not been terribly happy with
              what the state has been up to(or not up to as the case may be)in the last
              several years. I am not anyone's agent just as you are not. Just a concerned
              civil war historian as you are.

              Kevin Rawlings

              -----Original Message-----
              From: tjrhys62 [mailto:tjreesecg@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 3:59 PM
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain


              Richard,

              Your South Mountain question seems to have resurrected naïve
              assumptions about cooperative, incongruent battlefield ownership,
              its purported preservation, and the likelihood of achieving any
              symbiosis toward accessible park status. Complex questions require
              far more than simple answers, given the disparate groups involved
              possessed of wholly divergent if not incompatible objectives. Pay no
              attention to that man behind the curtain.

              Instead may I direct your attention to http://cwbn.blogspot.com/ for
              insightful investigation into the matter, postings for 3/5, 3/10,
              3/12, 3/16. This is an intermittent thread which you will easily
              pick up, a welcome breath of candor.

              Also, if you seek honest definition of "South Mountain"
              battlefields, and the political chicanery at work behind the scenes,
              have a look at http://home.earthlink.net/~tjreesecg/id6.html. All is
              not as it appears.

              Having waded through all this, then see http://mlis.state.md.us/PDF-
              Documents/2000rs/bills/hb/hb1183t.pdf for the official language of
              what South Mountain "Fake" Battlefield is and is not. It's icing
              without a cake which children naturally prefer.

              While the kiddies play, the house burns. Santa can't get down this
              chimney.

              Tim

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, <richard@r...> wrote:
              > Thanks Kevin -- I feel a littel better.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Rawlings, Kevin" <kevin.rawlings@s...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:21 PM
              > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain
              >
              >
              > > Richard,
              > >
              > > The Reno and Garland monuments art not going anywhere. The
              Garland
              > monumment
              > > is on Central Maryland Heritage League land and the state now
              owns the
              > > Daniel Wise home site and the Appalachain Trail owns much of the
              right of
              > > way through there. Much of the land at Fox's Gap are is own by
              one group
              > or
              > > the other or development rights have been bought up by the
              state. At
              > > Turner's Gap as Tim Reese described the Frostown Road are is
              under
              > > developement attack but the Alt 40 up the gap is protected.
              > >
              > > Kevin Rawlings
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >



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            • tjrhys62
              Hi Kevin, No one is referring to you; nor is anyone questioning your motives. Let s be a little less sensitive. The dishonesty I invoke is inherent and
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 28 2:43 PM
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                Hi Kevin,

                No one is referring to you; nor is anyone questioning your motives.
                Let's be a little less sensitive. The dishonesty I invoke is
                inherent and deliberate to the entire mountain "preservation"
                process, infused into its every fiber from the get-go. When it all
                began back in the `80s only George Brigham and I gave a damn. George
                went off the deep end; I went back to the books where I remain. The
                next publishing installment appears in June.

                You and I both owe Richard a bit more candor. Of course the Reno and
                Garland monuments will stay put! The former has been there over a
                century; the latter is little more than a headstone sunk into CMHL
                land 250 yards from the site. How contrived. Richard of course knew
                they would remain, posing his question in saddened rhetoric. One can
                scarcely blame him, one who can appreciate D.H. Hill's dilemma.

                Those of us who have been on the "inside", who have experienced
                covert agendas, and who have been disgusted at the ensuing
                spectacle, owe it to every person interested in these sites to tell
                it like it was, is, and mostly likely will remain. The maxim is "qui
                tacet consentire": silence betokens consent.

                I don't like to admit it, but the grim truth is that the South
                Mountain battlefield (Turner's and Fox's) is a goner. Like those
                I've learned to detest, I could continue to pretend something
                meaningful is afoot. But it isn't. Only egos, careers, and bank
                accounts matter these days.

                You have my sincere sympathy for your past efforts, much good may
                they do you. But now isn't the time to let the bastards get away
                with it using our good will, tax dollars, and patience. It's time we
                all called a spade a spade in both historical and preservation
                contexts. Go through the URLs I sited to Richard; then tell me your
                blood doesn't boil.

                If we don't speak out, who will? Thanks for caring as always.

                Tim

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rawlings, Kevin"
                <kevin.rawlings@s...> wrote:
                > Tim,
                >
                > No one is being dishonest if you are referring to me. There is
                some truth to
                > what you say and I agree with you about the state, political and
                private
                > concerns of the South Mountain battlefields. His question about
                the Reno and
                > Garland monuments being moved, as far as I know, there are no
                plans afoot to
                > move either unless you know something I do not. Also, at this
                point in time
                > I am not associated with any group except Save Historic Antietam
                Foundation.
                > I left CMHL awhile back because of a plethora of back stabbing
                politics and
                > lip service in the name of battlefield preservation in the board of
                > directors' current make up. Further, I have not been terribly
                happy with
                > what the state has been up to(or not up to as the case may be)in
                the last
                > several years. I am not anyone's agent just as you are not. Just a
                concerned
                > civil war historian as you are.
                >
                > Kevin Rawlings
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: tjrhys62 [mailto:tjreesecg@e...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 3:59 PM
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain
                >
                >
                > Richard,
                >
                > Your South Mountain question seems to have resurrected naïve
                > assumptions about cooperative, incongruent battlefield ownership,
                > its purported preservation, and the likelihood of achieving any
                > symbiosis toward accessible park status. Complex questions require
                > far more than simple answers, given the disparate groups involved
                > possessed of wholly divergent if not incompatible objectives. Pay
                no
                > attention to that man behind the curtain.
                >
                > Instead may I direct your attention to http://cwbn.blogspot.com/
                for
                > insightful investigation into the matter, postings for 3/5, 3/10,
                > 3/12, 3/16. This is an intermittent thread which you will easily
                > pick up, a welcome breath of candor.
                >
                > Also, if you seek honest definition of "South Mountain"
                > battlefields, and the political chicanery at work behind the
                scenes,
                > have a look at http://home.earthlink.net/~tjreesecg/id6.html. All
                is
                > not as it appears.
                >
                > Having waded through all this, then see
                http://mlis.state.md.us/PDF-
                > Documents/2000rs/bills/hb/hb1183t.pdf for the official language of
                > what South Mountain "Fake" Battlefield is and is not. It's icing
                > without a cake which children naturally prefer.
                >
                > While the kiddies play, the house burns. Santa can't get down this
                > chimney.
                >
                > Tim
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, <richard@r...> wrote:
                > > Thanks Kevin -- I feel a littel better.
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Rawlings, Kevin" <kevin.rawlings@s...>
                > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:21 PM
                > > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mountain
                > >
                > >
                > > > Richard,
                > > >
                > > > The Reno and Garland monuments art not going anywhere. The
                > Garland
                > > monumment
                > > > is on Central Maryland Heritage League land and the state now
                > owns the
                > > > Daniel Wise home site and the Appalachain Trail owns much of
                the
                > right of
                > > > way through there. Much of the land at Fox's Gap are is own by
                > one group
                > > or
                > > > the other or development rights have been bought up by the
                > state. At
                > > > Turner's Gap as Tim Reese described the Frostown Road are is
                > under
                > > > developement attack but the Alt 40 up the gap is protected.
                > > >
                > > > Kevin Rawlings
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
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                > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/GmiolB/TM
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              • Ronald Church
                The name of the road is Dahlgren Road. It s about a mile long and joins with Frost Town Road which connects to Mount Tabor Road which loops back into and back
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 12 8:04 PM
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                  The name of the road is Dahlgren Road. It's about a mile long and joins
                  with Frost Town Road which connects to Mount Tabor Road which loops back
                  into and back into Alt. 40 opposite Bolivar Road. If you haven't driven the
                  loop I highly recommend it. I recommend starting at Mt. Tabor Road. The
                  last half of it heading up toward the crest will reveal some of the most
                  Godawful terrain imagineable for an attack. Imagine the boys in blue down
                  at the bottom at Frost Town Road where they assembled, having to attack up
                  the hill toward the crest. Has to be seen to be appreciated.
                  Ron Church
                  Manchester MD


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:12 PM
                  Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain


                  > Just east of the Dahlgren Chapel there's a road that takes you up to a
                  > good
                  > spot. Tom Clemens can help you with the road name.and will warn you of
                  > the
                  > dangers of trying to get a tour bus up there!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Harry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                  > On
                  > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                  > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:42 PM
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Where is the best place to interpret the Turner's Gap action north of
                  > the National Pike? I'm talking about George Gordon Meade. I'm looking
                  > for a modern road name. Thanks.
                  >
                  > Stephen
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Stephen Recker
                  Thanks guys. I ll head out right now. Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 13 5:32 AM
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                    Thanks guys. I'll head out right now.

                    Stephen

                    On Thursday, April 12, 2007, at 11:04 PM, Ronald Church wrote:

                    > The name of the road is Dahlgren Road. It's about a mile long and joins
                    > with Frost Town Road which connects to Mount Tabor Road which loops
                    > back
                    > into and back into Alt. 40 opposite Bolivar Road. If you haven't
                    > driven the
                    > loop I highly recommend it. I recommend starting at Mt. Tabor Road. The
                    > last half of it heading up toward the crest will reveal some of the
                    > most
                    > Godawful terrain imagineable for an attack. Imagine the boys in blue
                    > down
                    > at the bottom at Frost Town Road where they assembled, having to
                    > attack up
                    > the hill toward the crest. Has to be seen to be appreciated.
                    > Ron Church
                    > Manchester MD
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:12 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                    >
                    > > Just east of the Dahlgren Chapel there's a road that takes you up to
                    > a
                    > > good
                    > > spot. Tom Clemens can help you with the road name.and will warn you
                    > of
                    > > the
                    > > dangers of trying to get a tour bus up there!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Harry
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                    > > On
                    > > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                    > > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:42 PM
                    > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Where is the best place to interpret the Turner's Gap action north of
                    > > the National Pike? I'm talking about George Gordon Meade. I'm looking
                    > > for a modern road name. Thanks.
                    > >
                    > > Stephen
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • rchurch@qis.net
                    Meade s forces generally fanned out across the low area and drove up the ravine on your right. Hatch followed Dahlgren Road for several hundred yards beyond
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 13 6:14 AM
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                      Meade's forces generally fanned out across the low area and drove up the ravine
                      on your right. Hatch followed Dahlgren Road for several hundred yards beyond
                      Frost Town Road then turned left off of the road and advanced up the hill
                      through heavy woods on the left. Wish I could be there with you.

                      Ron




                      Quoting Stephen Recker <recker@...>:

                      > Thanks guys. I'll head out right now.
                      >
                      > Stephen
                      >
                      > On Thursday, April 12, 2007, at 11:04 PM, Ronald Church wrote:
                      >
                      > > The name of the road is Dahlgren Road. It's about a mile long and joins
                      > > with Frost Town Road which connects to Mount Tabor Road which loops
                      > > back
                      > > into and back into Alt. 40 opposite Bolivar Road. If you haven't
                      > > driven the
                      > > loop I highly recommend it. I recommend starting at Mt. Tabor Road. The
                      > > last half of it heading up toward the crest will reveal some of the
                      > > most
                      > > Godawful terrain imagineable for an attack. Imagine the boys in blue
                      > > down
                      > > at the bottom at Frost Town Road where they assembled, having to
                      > > attack up
                      > > the hill toward the crest. Has to be seen to be appreciated.
                      > > Ron Church
                      > > Manchester MD
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                      > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:12 PM
                      > > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                      > >
                      > > > Just east of the Dahlgren Chapel there's a road that takes you up to
                      > > a
                      > > > good
                      > > > spot. Tom Clemens can help you with the road name.and will warn you
                      > > of
                      > > > the
                      > > > dangers of trying to get a tour bus up there!
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Harry
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > On
                      > > > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                      > > > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:42 PM
                      > > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Where is the best place to interpret the Turner's Gap action north of
                      > > > the National Pike? I'm talking about George Gordon Meade. I'm looking
                      > > > for a modern road name. Thanks.
                      > > >
                      > > > Stephen
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Thomas Clemens
                      Stephen, You can also head to Zittlestown Road and the MD Park entrance, turn right and then right again, following signs for Skycroft. That road takes you
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 13 12:53 PM
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                        Stephen,
                        You can also head to Zittlestown Road and the MD Park entrance, turn right and then right again, following signs for Skycroft. That road takes you down the other side of the ravine where Meade attacked and is also a way to view the field.
                        And Harry, Bite me! :-)

                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College


                        >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 04/13/07 8:32 AM >>>
                        Thanks guys. I'll head out right now.

                        Stephen

                        On Thursday, April 12, 2007, at 11:04 PM, Ronald Church wrote:

                        > The name of the road is Dahlgren Road. It's about a mile long and joins
                        > with Frost Town Road which connects to Mount Tabor Road which loops
                        > back
                        > into and back into Alt. 40 opposite Bolivar Road. If you haven't
                        > driven the
                        > loop I highly recommend it. I recommend starting at Mt. Tabor Road. The
                        > last half of it heading up toward the crest will reveal some of the
                        > most
                        > Godawful terrain imagineable for an attack. Imagine the boys in blue
                        > down
                        > at the bottom at Frost Town Road where they assembled, having to
                        > attack up
                        > the hill toward the crest. Has to be seen to be appreciated.
                        > Ron Church
                        > Manchester MD
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:12 PM
                        > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                        >
                        > > Just east of the Dahlgren Chapel there's a road that takes you up to
                        > a
                        > > good
                        > > spot. Tom Clemens can help you with the road name.and will warn you
                        > of
                        > > the
                        > > dangers of trying to get a tour bus up there!
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Harry
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
                        > > On
                        > > Behalf Of Stephen Recker
                        > > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:42 PM
                        > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Where is the best place to interpret the Turner's Gap action north of
                        > > the National Pike? I'm talking about George Gordon Meade. I'm looking
                        > > for a modern road name. Thanks.
                        > >
                        > > Stephen
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • jdpolaski@aol.com
                        I have a good question for the group. Does anyone know of Signal flags being used at the Washington Monument? And if so what units were they and what
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 13 2:03 PM
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                          I have a good question for the group. Does anyone know of Signal flags being
                          used at the Washington Monument? And if so what units were they and what
                          communications did they send out.



                          ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Adam Zimmerli
                          According to Edward Porter Alexander: I was riding with Gen. Lee when we came within a mile or two of the fight [for Turner s Gap] & some one discovered a
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 13 3:56 PM
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                            According to Edward Porter Alexander:
                            "I was riding with Gen. Lee when we came within a mile or two of the
                            fight [for Turner's Gap] & some one discovered a small party of
                            people on what seemed to be an old tower on the mountain top [the
                            Washington Monument] about a mile north of the pass. There were some
                            indications that it might be a signal party of the enemy sending
                            messages of our approach, &, itching to have some personal role in
                            a fight, I suggested to Gen. Lee that I might take a few men & go
                            recapture it. He approved & had eight men sent with me from some
                            brigade, I forget whose. I got in cover of some woods & then struck
                            up the mountain side &, after a hard, hot climb, at last got up &
                            around the tower (which seemed to have been built originally for a
                            windmill) before the party on it knew of my approach. But they were
                            plainly all natives of the vicinity attracted by the firing and up
                            there to see the battle. I was quite disgusted at the peaceful
                            character of my capture & left them after seeing that the position
                            gave no valuable view of the enemy's ground & I pushed on to the
                            front & right, towards the firing." Pages 142-143, Fighting for the
                            Confederacy.

                            According to the footnotes of the book, the tower was actually
                            effectively in ruins by 1862. If EPA didn't think it gave a good
                            view of the federals, could the same be said of the confederate army
                            moving out of Boonsboro? I wonder, since it would be something one
                            would assume he would think about.

                            Anybody know where the 8 men came from?

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, jdpolaski@... wrote:
                            >
                            > I have a good question for the group. Does anyone know of Signal
                            flags being
                            > used at the Washington Monument? And if so what units were they
                            and what
                            > communications did they send out.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ************************************** See what's free at
                            http://www.aol.com
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Stephen Recker
                            Tom, That is great. Thanks. Now I ll just stand back out of the way... Stephen
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 13 6:35 PM
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                              Tom,

                              That is great. Thanks.

                              Now I'll just stand back out of the way...<g>

                              Stephen




                              On Friday, April 13, 2007, at 03:53 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                              > Stephen,
                              > You can also head to Zittlestown Road and the MD Park entrance, turn
                              > right and then right again, following signs for Skycroft. That road
                              > takes you down the other side of the ravine where Meade attacked and
                              > is also a way to view the field.
                              > And Harry, Bite me! :-)
                              >
                              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > Professor of History
                              > Hagerstown Community College
                            • Thomas Clemens
                              It would have been more useful to the the Union thant the COnfederates, but EPA s account is the only real solid mention of it. It was uded i nthe Gettysburg
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 14 1:09 PM
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                                It would have been more useful to the the Union thant the COnfederates, but EPA's account is the only real solid mention of it. It was uded i nthe Gettysburg by Union signalman, including Wm. J. L. Nicodemus.


                                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                Professor of History
                                Hagerstown Community College


                                >>> "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...> 04/13/07 6:56 PM >>>
                                According to Edward Porter Alexander:
                                "I was riding with Gen. Lee when we came within a mile or two of the
                                fight [for Turner's Gap] & some one discovered a small party of
                                people on what seemed to be an old tower on the mountain top [the
                                Washington Monument] about a mile north of the pass. There were some
                                indications that it might be a signal party of the enemy sending
                                messages of our approach, &, itching to have some personal role in
                                a fight, I suggested to Gen. Lee that I might take a few men & go
                                recapture it. He approved & had eight men sent with me from some
                                brigade, I forget whose. I got in cover of some woods & then struck
                                up the mountain side &, after a hard, hot climb, at last got up &
                                around the tower (which seemed to have been built originally for a
                                windmill) before the party on it knew of my approach. But they were
                                plainly all natives of the vicinity attracted by the firing and up
                                there to see the battle. I was quite disgusted at the peaceful
                                character of my capture & left them after seeing that the position
                                gave no valuable view of the enemy's ground & I pushed on to the
                                front & right, towards the firing." Pages 142-143, Fighting for the
                                Confederacy.

                                According to the footnotes of the book, the tower was actually
                                effectively in ruins by 1862. If EPA didn't think it gave a good
                                view of the federals, could the same be said of the confederate army
                                moving out of Boonsboro? I wonder, since it would be something one
                                would assume he would think about.

                                Anybody know where the 8 men came from?

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, jdpolaski@... wrote:
                                >
                                > I have a good question for the group. Does anyone know of Signal
                                flags being
                                > used at the Washington Monument? And if so what units were they
                                and what
                                > communications did they send out.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ************************************** See what's free at
                                http://www.aol.com
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Stephen Recker
                                Does anyone know of any writings regarding trouble citizens of Maryland got into for joining Lee s army during the Maryland Campaign? Thanks. Stephen
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 19 6:00 PM
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                                  Does anyone know of any writings regarding trouble citizens of Maryland
                                  got into for joining Lee's army during the Maryland Campaign? Thanks.

                                  Stephen
                                • G E Mayers
                                  Stephen, Not sure, but there is an interesting account of a citizen of Pennsylvania who left the state to try to jine up with Lee s Army during the same
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 19 6:08 PM
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                                    Stephen,

                                    Not sure, but there is an interesting account of a citizen of
                                    Pennsylvania who left the state to try to jine up with Lee's Army
                                    during the same campaign, was captured and then when he returned home
                                    to his home town under guard as a prisoner of war, it got dicey for a
                                    bit.

                                    Scott Mingus Sr. might be able to give you the story if you contact
                                    him at scottmingus@...

                                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                    one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                                    passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                                    God. --Anonymous
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:00 PM
                                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Treason?


                                    > Does anyone know of any writings regarding trouble citizens of
                                    > Maryland
                                    > got into for joining Lee's army during the Maryland Campaign?
                                    > Thanks.
                                    >
                                    > Stephen
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Stephen Recker
                                    Thanks. maybe it s in his new book. Stephen
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 19 6:40 PM
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                                      Thanks. maybe it's in his new book.

                                      Stephen

                                      On Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 09:08 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                      > Not sure, but there is an interesting account of a citizen of
                                      > Pennsylvania who left the state to try to jine up with Lee's Army
                                      > during the same campaign, was captured and then when he returned home
                                      > to his home town under guard as a prisoner of war, it got dicey for a
                                      > bit.
                                    • G E Mayers
                                      Stephen, Yes, it is. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 20 2:08 AM
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                                        Stephen,

                                        Yes, it is.

                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                        one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                                        passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                                        God. --Anonymous
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:40 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Treason?


                                        > Thanks. maybe it's in his new book.
                                        >
                                        > Stephen
                                        >
                                        > On Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 09:08 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> Not sure, but there is an interesting account of a citizen of
                                        >> Pennsylvania who left the state to try to jine up with Lee's Army
                                        >> during the same campaign, was captured and then when he returned
                                        >> home
                                        >> to his home town under guard as a prisoner of war, it got dicey for
                                        >> a
                                        >> bit.
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • colliszouave@yahoo.com
                                        Besides John Hoptak s book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by Clemens, what others are must-haves re: South Mountain? Respectfully, Mike Peters
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Apr 17 3:55 PM
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                                          Besides John Hoptak's book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by Clemens, what others are "must-haves" re: South Mountain?

                                          Respectfully,

                                          Mike Peters
                                          Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                        • G E Mayers
                                          Mike; Although it does have many errors in it, I would still recommend J M Priest s book Before Antietam as a good guide for South Mountain fighting. Also,
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Apr 17 5:51 PM
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                                            Mike;

                                            Although it does have many errors in it, I would still recommend J M
                                            Priest's book "Before Antietam" as a good guide for South Mountain fighting.
                                            Also, the War College Guide to Antietam has excellent section on South
                                            Mountain, but I understand (IIRC???) it might be out of print.

                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
                                            mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to
                                            any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]On
                                            Behalf Of colliszouave@...
                                            Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 6:56 PM
                                            To: Talk Antietam
                                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain



                                            Besides John Hoptak's book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by
                                            Clemens, what others are "must-haves" re: South Mountain?

                                            Respectfully,

                                            Mike Peters
                                            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry






                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Jim Rosebrock
                                            Mike You should also consider Tim Reese s book on the Battle of Crampton s Gap. It is titled Sealed With Their Lives. I don t know if you can get it new.
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Apr 17 6:23 PM
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                                              Mike
                                              You should also consider Tim Reese's book on the Battle of Crampton's Gap. It
                                              is titled Sealed With Their Lives. I don't know if you can get it new. Amazon
                                              has it here. It is out of print (I think) and a little expensive but worth your
                                              consideration.
                                              Regards
                                              Jim Rosebrock





                                              ________________________________
                                              From: "colliszouave@..." <colliszouave@...>
                                              To: Talk Antietam <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sun, April 17, 2011 6:55:34 PM
                                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain


                                              Besides John Hoptak's book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by
                                              Clemens, what others are "must-haves" re: South Mountain?

                                              Respectfully,

                                              Mike Peters
                                              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • colliszouave@yahoo.com
                                              Thank you Gerry, Jim and Steve! ... From: G E Mayers Sender: Talk Antietam To: Talk Antietam ReplyTo: Talk Antietam Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Apr 17 6:38 PM
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                                                Thank you Gerry, Jim and Steve!
                                                ------Original Message------
                                                From: G E Mayers
                                                Sender: Talk Antietam
                                                To: Talk Antietam
                                                ReplyTo: Talk Antietam
                                                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                                                Sent: Apr 17, 2011 8:51 PM

                                                Mike;

                                                Although it does have many errors in it, I would still recommend J M
                                                Priest's book "Before Antietam" as a good guide for South Mountain fighting.
                                                Also, the War College Guide to Antietam has excellent section on South
                                                Mountain, but I understand (IIRC???) it might be out of print.

                                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
                                                mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to
                                                any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                Behalf Of colliszouave@...
                                                Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 6:56 PM
                                                To: Talk Antietam
                                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain



                                                Besides John Hoptak's book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by
                                                Clemens, what others are "must-haves" re: South Mountain?

                                                Respectfully,

                                                Mike Peters
                                                Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry






                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                ------------------------------------


                                                Yahoo! Groups Links





                                                Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                              • G E Mayers
                                                Mike; You might also find the late Joseph Harsh s book Taken at the Flood to have much useful information as well. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Apr 17 7:38 PM
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                                                  Mike;

                                                  You might also find the late Joseph Harsh's book "Taken at the Flood" to
                                                  have much useful information as well.

                                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
                                                  mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to
                                                  any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                  Behalf Of colliszouave@...
                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:39 PM
                                                  To: Talk Antietam
                                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain



                                                  Thank you Gerry, Jim and Steve!
                                                  ------Original Message------
                                                  From: G E Mayers
                                                  Sender: Talk Antietam
                                                  To: Talk Antietam
                                                  ReplyTo: Talk Antietam
                                                  Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain
                                                  Sent: Apr 17, 2011 8:51 PM

                                                  Mike;

                                                  Although it does have many errors in it, I would still recommend J M
                                                  Priest's book "Before Antietam" as a good guide for South Mountain
                                                  fighting.
                                                  Also, the War College Guide to Antietam has excellent section on South
                                                  Mountain, but I understand (IIRC???) it might be out of print.

                                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's
                                                  mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to
                                                  any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                  Behalf Of colliszouave@...
                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 6:56 PM
                                                  To: Talk Antietam
                                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mountain



                                                  Besides John Hoptak's book and the work of Carman, edited and annotated by
                                                  Clemens, what others are "must-haves" re: South Mountain?

                                                  Respectfully,

                                                  Mike Peters
                                                  Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry






                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                  ------------------------------------


                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                                                  Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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