Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Irish Brigade - Patriots or hypocrits?

Expand Messages
  • scotty90900@cs.com
    This might get some responses from talkantietam I know it will elicit some response from the history group. At least the title should get some people s
    Message 1 of 3 , May 26, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      This might get some responses from "talkantietam" I know it will elicit some
      response from the history group. At least the title should get some people's
      attention.

      The Irish have always been a mystery to me. The seem to say one thing but do
      the direct opposite. Their participation in the American Civil War is a prime
      example. And their actions during both the first and second world wars is
      again something that would confuse any civilized person.

      Because this will encompass both I have cross posted to both groups.

      First the quandary during the Civil War.
      The Irish fought on both sides but more Irishmen fought on the side of the
      Union. I have been told or I read somewhere that General Meagher (SP?) wanted
      to train the Irish Brigade so he could take them back to Ireland and fight
      for the "independence" of Ireland. That is what confuses me. How could he and
      his brigade fight against the secession of the Confederacy from the Union yet
      have this burning desire to see Ireland secede from England? Is that not a
      contradiction? You can't be for and against something at the same time. And
      don't tell me that Ireland is or was a separate country. Dublin is much
      closer to London than New Orleans is to New York. Yes, the culture and
      heritage of Ireland and England are different but the same could be said
      about the North and the South.

      Now for the part pertinent to the HDG;

      During both world wars the Irish and Ireland allied themselves with Germany.
      I know Kaiser Wilhelm was not the despot that was Hitler so siding with him
      against England would make sense.
      But how does any one with a just and fair mind justify the alliance with the
      most despicable being to ever draw a breath? The Irish openly aided German
      spies and allowed Nazis to set up radio stations in Ireland to track Allied
      shipping and report same to German U-boats. Am I not also correct in saying
      the German equivalent to "Tokyo Rose" was an Irishmen. Don't know his real
      name but I think he used Lord Ha Ha as a moniker.
      How does that square with the picture the Irish paint of a "kind and freedom
      loving people"?

      Or am I simply being too harsh on them? I don't mean to offend. I simply
      would like some answers and perhaps some open discussion.

      SW
    • David Lutton
      The Irish never considered themselves part of England. Theirs was a conquered land. The treatment of the conquerors was at times severe. The response of
      Message 2 of 3 , May 26, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        The Irish never considered themselves part of England. Theirs was a
        conquered land. The treatment of the conquerors was at times severe. The
        response of the British government during the potato famine, and the
        degrading 2nd class citizen status given the Irish by the English did not
        sit well with the Irish spirit. The fires of nationalism burned strongly in
        the hearts of most Irishmen. Meagher's hope of retuning home to fight the
        English would have been a view shared by a majority of the transplanted
        Irish-Americans even those that fought for the south.

        By contrast the southerners voluntary joined the union and were rightfully
        proud to be called Americans. Those who fought with Meagher at the Sunken
        Road showed the metal of Irish determination as they would do on many a
        bloody battlefield from Fredericksburg to Franklin.

        By the way, less someone misunderstand, my family is of Yorkshire stock! So
        admiration of a brave fighting heart need not look at the nationality! I
        hope this is not too far field of the parameters of the groups purpose.

        David Lutton
        Hollidaysburg Pa


        From: <scotty90900@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: <hdg@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:16 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Irish Brigade - Patriots or hypocrits?


        >
        > This might get some responses from "talkantietam" I know it will elicit
        some
        > response from the history group. At least the title should get some
        people's
        > attention.
        >
        > The Irish have always been a mystery to me. The seem to say one thing but
        do
        > the direct opposite. Their participation in the American Civil War is a
        prime
        > example. And their actions during both the first and second world wars is
        > again something that would confuse any civilized person.
        >
        > Because this will encompass both I have cross posted to both groups.
        >
        > First the quandary during the Civil War.
        > The Irish fought on both sides but more Irishmen fought on the side of the
        > Union. I have been told or I read somewhere that General Meagher (SP?)
        wanted
        > to train the Irish Brigade so he could take them back to Ireland and fight
        > for the "independence" of Ireland. That is what confuses me. How could he
        and
        > his brigade fight against the secession of the Confederacy from the Union
        yet
        > have this burning desire to see Ireland secede from England? Is that not a
        > contradiction? You can't be for and against something at the same time.
        And
        > don't tell me that Ireland is or was a separate country. Dublin is much
        > closer to London than New Orleans is to New York. Yes, the culture and
        > heritage of Ireland and England are different but the same could be said
        > about the North and the South.
        >
        > Now for the part pertinent to the HDG;
        >
        > During both world wars the Irish and Ireland allied themselves with
        Germany.
        > I know Kaiser Wilhelm was not the despot that was Hitler so siding with
        him
        > against England would make sense.
        > But how does any one with a just and fair mind justify the alliance with
        the
        > most despicable being to ever draw a breath? The Irish openly aided German
        > spies and allowed Nazis to set up radio stations in Ireland to track
        Allied
        > shipping and report same to German U-boats. Am I not also correct in
        saying
        > the German equivalent to "Tokyo Rose" was an Irishmen. Don't know his real
        > name but I think he used Lord Ha Ha as a moniker.
        > How does that square with the picture the Irish paint of a "kind and
        freedom
        > loving people"?
        >
        > Or am I simply being too harsh on them? I don't mean to offend. I simply
        > would like some answers and perhaps some open discussion.
        >
        > SW
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • scotty90900@cs.com
        In a message dated 5/26/01 7:27:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dunkerch@charter.net writes:
        Message 3 of 3 , May 26, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 5/26/01 7:27:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          dunkerch@... writes:

          << The Irish never considered themselves part of England. Theirs was a
          conquered land. The treatment of the conquerors was at times severe. The
          response of the British government during the potato famine, and the
          degrading 2nd class citizen status given the Irish by the English did not
          sit well with the Irish spirit. The fires of nationalism burned strongly in
          the hearts of most Irishmen. Meagher's hope of retuning home to fight the
          English would have been a view shared by a majority of the transplanted
          Irish-Americans even those that fought for the south.

          By contrast the southerners voluntary joined the union and were rightfully
          proud to be called Americans. Those who fought with Meagher at the Sunken
          Road showed the metal of Irish determination as they would do on many a
          bloody battlefield from Fredericksburg to Franklin. >>



          Thank you for your intelligent and thughtfull response. I seem to have been
          misinformed about Irish history. Much better to get an explanation than an
          abrupt and discourteous reply like Tony Turner.
          I will endeavor to learn more about the Irish.

          Since I crossposted this I will also do the same when replying

          SW
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.