Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

2496Re: [TalkAntietam] Order 191

Expand Messages
  • NJ Rebel
    Feb 11, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Harry;

      Indeed...and neither did Jackson...............

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the
      people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same
      shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
      Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
      1788

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:43 PM
      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191


      > The timetable established in SO 191 certainly indicates that Lee did
      > not
      > account for the hold-out of the Garrison at HF.
      >
      >
      >
      > Harry
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of richard@...
      > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:06 AM
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
      >
      >
      >
      > There are some things that are not only unknown -- but unknowable.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:49 PM
      > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
      >
      >
      >> I believe Harsh says that Lee lost the initiative even before
      >> that -
      > around
      >> the time that the timetable for the Martinsburg/Harper's Ferry
      >> operation
      >> went to hell. And that was pretty quick. Lee never planned for
      >> the
      >> possibility that the garrison at HF would hold out - at least not
      >> in SO
      > 191.
      >> If he accounted for that contingency, he did not record it, nor did
      >> anyone
      >> else.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Harry
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      >> [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]
      > On
      >> Behalf Of NJ Rebel
      >> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:59 PM
      >> To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Harry,
      >>
      >> Being the scholar of Antietam/Sharpsburg that I am, and also having
      >> digested Harsh's books, I agree.
      >>
      >> Stuart should take more blame for some of the shortcomings of the
      >> campaign, but as Harsh says so eloquently, Lee lost the initiative
      >> of
      >> the Campaign about the time the "Lost Order" was found.....
      >>
      >> Maybe Pete Longstreet was right in his concerns about splitting the
      >> ANV into so many segments....
      >>
      >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
      >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >>
      >> "....the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from
      >> the
      >> people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the
      >> same
      >> shall be perverted to their injury or oppression;.."
      >> Act of State of Virginia adopting the Federal Constitution, 26 June
      >> 1788
      >>
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      >> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:52 PM
      >> Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
      >>
      >>
      >> > If you're covering the beginning of the campaign, keep in mind
      >> > that
      >> > SO 191
      >> > was not even written until the 9th, and not found until the 13th.
      >> > I
      >> > don't
      >> > know that I'd call that the beginning of the campaign.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Another question you might ask is just when did Lee discover that
      >> > McClellan
      >> > had taken the field against him? The last army he had faced was
      >> > led
      >> > by
      >> > Pope. There was a very brief announcement, I think on the 6th,
      >> > that
      >> > McClellan had moved his HQ outside the city limits, but I'm not
      >> > sure
      >> > Lee
      >> > would have seen this, and even if he had he may not have come to
      >> > the
      >> > conclusion that Pope had been displaced.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > One chronicler of the campaign has a rather unusual way of
      >> > rationalizing all
      >> > of this. Relying on the old saw that Lee gathered a lot of intel
      >> > from
      >> > Northern papers, he claims that Lee became aware of the change in
      >> > commanders
      >> > and even tailored his campaign on the fly to take advantage of
      >> > McClellan's
      >> > "weaknesses." But with the publication of the discovery of SO
      >> > 191
      >> > on either
      >> > the 14th or 15th (can't remember right now), and Lee's claiming
      >> > to
      >> > be
      >> > unaware of this discovery, he (the author) magically concludes
      >> > that
      >> > Lee's
      >> > newspaper sources had dried up. Well, maybe they had dried up
      >> > long
      >> > before.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > As Joe Harsh has pointed out, it was not important whether Lee
      >> > knew
      >> > about
      >> > the discovery of the order. What was important was that he now
      >> > knew
      >> > that
      >> > the AotP was much closer and moving much faster than he had been
      >> > led
      >> > to
      >> > believe (for this I fault Stuart, who did not shine in the roles
      >> > of
      >> > scouting
      >> > and screening in this campaign).
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Harry
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > -----Original Message-----
      >> > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      >> > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      >> > Behalf Of nickrelee@...
      >> > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:37 PM
      >> > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      >> > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Order 191
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > As I've mentioned before our study group is doing the Antietam
      >> > campaign
      >> > this
      >> > year. Next week we will be discussing the beginning of the
      >> > campaign
      >> > and
      >> > will definetly hit on order 191. Having read many different
      >> > sources
      >> > I'm
      >> > still
      >> > confused as to when Lee knew about McClellan's finding of the
      >> > order. I
      >> > think
      >> > it was Murfin who said that at 10 pm on the 13th Lee sent a
      >> > message
      >> > to
      >> > McLaws(?) that said the Union was coming to Harper's Ferry, but
      >> > that
      >> > the
      >> > Union
      >> > moves that afternoon had not been in that direction so he assumed
      >> > that Lee
      >> > had
      >> > heard about the finding and assumed Mac would go to HF. Someone
      >> > else said
      >> > that
      >> > Lee did not know about it until that winter when he read a
      >> > newspaper
      >> > account
      >> > of it. And someone else said that he knew of it but that the
      >> > newspaper
      >> > just
      >> > revealed who's copy had been lost. So what is the most accepted
      >> > version?
      >> > --Nick
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > SPONSORED LINKS
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Civil
      >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      >>
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> &k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> > &k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> > w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=M8mjKWQfCOoomJUxcwVT2g>
      >> > war
      >> > history
      >> >
      >> > Civil
      >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      >>
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> &k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> > &k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> > w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=KUuQ3QIWEfplrXjsZ8AXxQ>
      >> > war
      >> > battles
      >> >
      >> > Civil
      >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      >>
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
      >> &k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
      >> > &k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
      >> > +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA>
      >> > war
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > _____
      >> >
      >> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > * Visit your group "TalkAntietam
      >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam> " on the web.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >> > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >> > <mailto:TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      >> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > _____
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > --
      >> ----
      >> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >> >
      >> > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
      >> >
      >> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >> > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >> >
      >> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      >> > Service.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > --
      >> ----
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> SPONSORED LINKS
      >>
      >>
      >> Civil
      >>
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> &k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=M8mjKWQfCOoomJUxcwVT2g>
      > war
      >> history
      >>
      >> Civil
      >>
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> &k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
      >> w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=KUuQ3QIWEfplrXjsZ8AXxQ>
      > war
      >> battles
      >>
      >> Civil
      >>
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
      >> &k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
      >> +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA>
      >> war
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> _____
      >>
      >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> * Visit your group "TalkAntietam
      >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam> " on the web.
      >>
      >>
      >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >> TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      >>
      >>
      >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> _____
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS
      >
      >
      > Civil
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war+history&w1=Civil+war+history&
      > w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=M8mjKWQfCOoomJUxcwVT2g>
      > war
      > history
      >
      > Civil
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war+battles&w1=Civil+war+history&
      > w2=Civil+war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=KUuQ3QIWEfplrXjsZ8AXxQ>
      > war
      > battles
      >
      > Civil
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Civil+war&w1=Civil+war+history&w2=Civil
      > +war+battles&w3=Civil+war&c=3&s=61&.sig=BbC2G-g28wRDSuP_hgFILA> war
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      >
      > * Visit your group "TalkAntietam
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam> " on the web.
      >
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      >
      >
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS Civil war history Civil war battles Civil war
      >
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      > a.. Visit your group "TalkAntietam" on the web.
      >
      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > Service.
      >
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
    • Show all 8 messages in this topic