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Re: [TTLUG] Has Microsoft's Plan Back-fired?

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  • Mikhail A. Noel
    You re right. And you re pretty much describing the situation where I work. We recently went through a period of regularising or software inventory and
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 7, 2001
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      You're right. And you're pretty much describing the situation where I
      work. We recently went through a period of regularising or software
      "inventory" and supplied StarOffice to those who had to loose their ms
      office and the like.

      In most cases the microslaves are just plain pissed that they've got to
      use something besides their precious MS stuff (including IT folks!), and
      although we've given them easy to follow manuals we don't have the time
      to train them properly.

      But, from what I hear its a moot point. Our organisation falls under the
      umbrella of the government's IT plan and, if everything goes as planned,
      we'll all be force-fed microstink (at least the microslaves would be happy).

      As to all that other stuff...I think alot of us would be willing. Isn't
      that one of the aims of the group? To help eachother train, become
      experts, and spread the gospel of opensource?

      Well, for one thing, I'm nowhere near ready for that challenge. I've
      just had time to tinker now and then, but I know some of you guys are
      really good and more than capable to take up Richard's challenge now.

      Richard Jobity wrote:

      >Let me play devil's advocate here.
      >
      >
      >Do you think the average IT department in Trinidad and Tobago even
      >cares (or knows) about Linux? These are guys whose procurement of
      >software begins and ends with the entry "Microsoft".
      >
      >That is, until the BSA comes calling and they realize that 95 per
      >cent of the stuff they use is pirated/grey market/can't find the
      >license... after they clean themselves, they look for free stuff.
      >
      >Or just bend over and pony up the license money.
      >
      >In the case of the former, users, forced to use StarOffice (never
      >heard of it before, don't understand why the organization couldn't
      >buy the dumb licenses), bitch all day long about the product. Simply
      >because it doesn't work like MS Office, and they haven't learned the
      >StarOffice equivalents of the nice little MS Office shortcuts that
      >the companies (or they themselves) paid them to learn.
      >
      >Sure they consider it at the server level... until they run up
      >against webmin. They didn't learn that in their MCSE/Aplus classes,
      >and besides, Linux is ugly unix text anyways. Or so they think.
      >
      >Question is: what are we doing to change their opinions?
      >
      >We know better - or we should. Are we training ourselves so that if
      >necessary we can hack an Apache server in an hour to replace an IIS
      >bughouse?
      >
      >Have we played with Ximian evolution so that we can say "You are the
      >weakest link - goodbye!" to Outlook?
      >
      >Can we substitute Linux/BSD software for Windows applications?
      >
      >Can we hack Wine/VMware/Win4Lin to make our "can't do without 'em"
      >windows apps work fine in our open source sandbox?
      >
      >Can we suggest Linux replacements for stuff we use in Windows?
      >
      >Can we run a Linux demo if we need to?
      >
      >The TCO argument is usually rebutted by Microsoft by their saying
      >that Unix/Linux professionals cost more, and that maintenance costs
      >are higher, and that there is nobody in a company you can scream at
      >if something goes wrong with your Linux network. And licenses aren't
      >a large percentage of TCO anyway. So they say.
      >
      >what do we do? We train ourselves, and set up our Linux companies.
      >The Caribbean is about 10 million people... there is enough room for
      >those in our group who want to do that kind of thing. For starters.
      >There is a market for us out there.
      >
      >
      >>From what I hear, XP is Good Enough. why do we need another OS to
      >confuse our techies?
      >
      >
      >Anyone? TTLUG? (besides the group trolls, that is)
      >
      >
      >--- Allistair Mitchell <stellar_tt@...> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >>http://www.business2.com/articles/web/print/0,1650,35655,FF.html
      >>
      >>The word on the street is that IT departments are indeed beginning
      >>to consider Linux or other open source software in greater numbers
      >>as a viable alternative to Microsoft's products, particularly
      >>Windows XP. Reasons include overwhelming cost savings in many
      >>cases, ease of customization and performance advantages.
      >>
      >>"Search engine Google uses more than 10,000 cheap Linux computers
      >>to deliver its high-performance Web searches. Google director of
      >>technology Craig Silverstein told me that whenever the firm needs
      >>to improve performance, it just adds more computers to the network.
      >>That's relatively inexpensive to do, because its system runs on
      >>cheap, off-the-shelf PCs. So far, it's working -- Google tops many
      >>website performance tests."
      >>
      >>Linux * 10,000 = $Free
      >>Windows 2000 Server * 10,000 = $millions
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >=====
      >**************
      >Richard Jobity, Trinidad and Tobago
      >ICQ: 5183191; AIM: richjob; http://chanderspot.go.to
      >calendar at http://calendar.yahoo.com/richjob
      >
      >"I see dead websites."
      >http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/
      >
      >__________________________________________________
      >Do You Yahoo!?
      >Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
      >http://greetings.yahoo.com
      >
      >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >TTLUG-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Vlade Malfet
      I am trying..the other day i was at your investments. They ahd a linux box up and running. Mandrake 8.0. But they changed a piece of hardware that for soem
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 7, 2001
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        I am trying..the other day i was at your investments. They ahd a linux box up and running. Mandrake 8.0. But they changed a piece of hardware that for soem reason hard drake did not detect on startup and it kept causing a crash. I had to show them how o manually invoke hard drake, after showing them where to get the control pannel....al the while explaining to them "stop thinking it';s windows. Pretend your now learning about computers....cause its different in here"
         
        I impressed myself. .....I got it configured and even installed the drivers of the cd for them *linux drivers*
         
        they were trying to get the drivers and chosing windows nt......looking for the setup.exe file.....showed them not everything is setup.exe..... like windows..the mother of all "setup.exes"
        so i am happy...i my brain is functioning after all. :)
      • Vlade Malfet
        the average it professional has heard of linux...thoes who ahve a MCSE degree i noticed go around saying it;s not as good as microsoft, or that it;s harder to
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 7, 2001
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          the average it professional has heard of linux...thoes who ahve a MCSE degree i noticed go around saying it;s not as good as microsoft, or that it;s harder to use. and stuf like that.....Ever saw what happens when you go up to them ad say makintosh? they start to tremble, blubber, stuffer and backstep.
           
          THEY are FULLY awear of microsoft;s attempt of manipulation and thevery...i was talking to another guy and he was saying "Maybe Linux WAS better then windows before..but with this new XP it is better" He went on to say that it was built on NT which was a multi Thread and network OS and that linux had to meet its standards... I said "funny.....they only jsut made it on the nt platform? Linux has been using UNIX which you knwo is what they based NT's design on....and it's multi thread also...just that it works faster, guess that makes it superior huh?...let me know when they base it on unix like they wanted to." needless to say he got a little pissed.....*hehe* then also he started to say they redisigned the  GUI and the icons where way nicer now to which i replied "Yeah...it;s great that they used almost all of the kde icons which everyone has been using for years..the kde designer must be proud that his icon design and icons are so popular among the windows people" ....he tried to argue...... he';s downloading linux to install on his computer right now jsut to see kde.
           
          WE can do SERIOUSE dammage....the one thing we are missing is FINANCING.....becasue Your investments is selling their $3999.00 computer with linux. the bad thing is....no technecial support.....
           
          around august...all things keep going good for me....I will open a computer store...if i get that damn building up  in time and the store open. I will be pushing linux.......so there will be a linux place...I wont be the first..but i will be dedicated.....windows will be there also...but more back shelf.....jsut for the money to get thoes really expensives toys..the ones that go 0 -60 in 4.6 seconds.
        • Allistair Mitchell
          This is precisely the kind of measured, well-thoughtout response that has been lacking for a while. I invite anyone interested in actually doing something that
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 7, 2001
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            This is precisely the kind of measured, well-thoughtout response that has
            been lacking for a while. I invite anyone interested in actually doing
            something that way (corporate approach, professional training approach) to
            talk to me.

            See, I am a Linux newbie, and installed Redhat 6.2, then Mandrake 8.0 on my
            own. But I have been a techie for ten yrs plus. I am introducing Linux to my
            clientele as a viable alternative, but I myself need the training, to be
            able to offer support.

            I have a registered company (Stellar Technologies Ltd) and we sell
            relatively high-end systems at relatively low prices. My wet dream/nightmare
            has been that a client says, "OK, I'll take the Linux." He gets it, then
            calls me for support on something I didn't install. Or did I?

            I am truly interested in learning Linux at least 75% as well as I know
            DOS/WIN3.x/Win9x/WinMe. I got the corporate backing, I can get a lot more
            from the Man, and I can get a lot of people to try this thing. Because once
            the BS Artists come into town on you, you shovel or you smell.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Richard Jobity <richjob@...>
            To: <TTLUG@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 4:56 PM
            Subject: Re: [TTLUG] Has Microsoft's Plan Back-fired?


            > Let me play devil's advocate here.
            >
            >
            > Do you think the average IT department in Trinidad and Tobago even
            > cares (or knows) about Linux? These are guys whose procurement of
            > software begins and ends with the entry "Microsoft".
            >
            > That is, until the BSA comes calling and they realize that 95 per
            > cent of the stuff they use is pirated/grey market/can't find the
            > license... after they clean themselves, they look for free stuff.
            >
            > Or just bend over and pony up the license money.
            >
            > In the case of the former, users, forced to use StarOffice (never
            > heard of it before, don't understand why the organization couldn't
            > buy the dumb licenses), bitch all day long about the product. Simply
            > because it doesn't work like MS Office, and they haven't learned the
            > StarOffice equivalents of the nice little MS Office shortcuts that
            > the companies (or they themselves) paid them to learn.
            >
            > Sure they consider it at the server level... until they run up
            > against webmin. They didn't learn that in their MCSE/Aplus classes,
            > and besides, Linux is ugly unix text anyways. Or so they think.
            >
            > Question is: what are we doing to change their opinions?
            >
            > We know better - or we should. Are we training ourselves so that if
            > necessary we can hack an Apache server in an hour to replace an IIS
            > bughouse?
            >
            > Have we played with Ximian evolution so that we can say "You are the
            > weakest link - goodbye!" to Outlook?
            >
            > Can we substitute Linux/BSD software for Windows applications?
            >
            > Can we hack Wine/VMware/Win4Lin to make our "can't do without 'em"
            > windows apps work fine in our open source sandbox?
            >
            > Can we suggest Linux replacements for stuff we use in Windows?
            >
            > Can we run a Linux demo if we need to?
            >
            > The TCO argument is usually rebutted by Microsoft by their saying
            > that Unix/Linux professionals cost more, and that maintenance costs
            > are higher, and that there is nobody in a company you can scream at
            > if something goes wrong with your Linux network. And licenses aren't
            > a large percentage of TCO anyway. So they say.
            >
            > what do we do? We train ourselves, and set up our Linux companies.
            > The Caribbean is about 10 million people... there is enough room for
            > those in our group who want to do that kind of thing. For starters.
            > There is a market for us out there.
            >
            >
            > >From what I hear, XP is Good Enough. why do we need another OS to
            > confuse our techies?
            >
            >
            > Anyone? TTLUG? (besides the group trolls, that is)
            >
            >
            > --- Allistair Mitchell <stellar_tt@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > http://www.business2.com/articles/web/print/0,1650,35655,FF.html
            > >
            > > The word on the street is that IT departments are indeed beginning
            > > to consider Linux or other open source software in greater numbers
            > > as a viable alternative to Microsoft's products, particularly
            > > Windows XP. Reasons include overwhelming cost savings in many
            > > cases, ease of customization and performance advantages.
            > >
            > > "Search engine Google uses more than 10,000 cheap Linux computers
            > > to deliver its high-performance Web searches. Google director of
            > > technology Craig Silverstein told me that whenever the firm needs
            > > to improve performance, it just adds more computers to the network.
            > > That's relatively inexpensive to do, because its system runs on
            > > cheap, off-the-shelf PCs. So far, it's working -- Google tops many
            > > website performance tests."
            > >
            > > Linux * 10,000 = $Free
            > > Windows 2000 Server * 10,000 = $millions
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > =====
            > **************
            > Richard Jobity, Trinidad and Tobago
            > ICQ: 5183191; AIM: richjob; http://chanderspot.go.to
            > calendar at http://calendar.yahoo.com/richjob
            >
            > "I see dead websites."
            > http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
            > http://greetings.yahoo.com
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > TTLUG-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Richard Jobity
            Actually, I forgot one other, crucial point. Any Linux installation must integrate seamlessly (and invisibly) with existing corporate IT systems. If I replace
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 7, 2001
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              Actually, I forgot one other, crucial point.

              Any Linux installation must integrate seamlessly (and invisibly) with existing corporate IT systems.

              If I replace Exchange Server with postfix/sendmail, ideally the only thing that users should notice is that mail no longer fails to get through because of a misconfigured mail
              server.

              On the corporate front, TTLUG has B@A (training, setup and networking), browwwsers (the same) as companies. If there are others I forgot, my apologies.

              Mostly, we have individual members with formidable Linuxing administration skills and programming skills. Much more so than me.

              As for knowing Linux, you just gotta dig in, read the HowTos, ask sensible questions on the mailing lists (not only TTLUG... Linux India and svlug, linux.ie and
              linux@yahoogroups.com is also good).

              That's how you learn stuff.

              Let me throw this out to list members.

              What do you guys want to see as topics at the next meeting?

              I've got to mix hard stuff (admin of Samba and sendmail, for example) with "softer stuff" (DVDs in Linux, for example).

              Thing is, there are an infinity of topics, but not an infinity of presenters. Hopefully, I can get some time commitments so I just can set up a venue and attend as a member
              rather than fighting up with a presentation on a topic that some other list member knows a lot better than me... The important thing in the meetings is to establish working
              relationships between Luggers.

              I know that Mengistu will come do networking/ Samba when he gets a bit of a break from his studies.
              There are others, but that is when they have time...

              Unfortunately, I don't have cool Red Hat swag to give away this year. :(

              On 7 Dec 2001 at 7:37, Allistair Mitchell wrote:

              > This is precisely the kind of measured, well-thoughtout response that has
              > been lacking for a while. I invite anyone interested in actually doing
              > something that way (corporate approach, professional training approach) to
              > talk to me.
              >
              > See, I am a Linux newbie, and installed Redhat 6.2, then Mandrake 8.0 on my
              > own. But I have been a techie for ten yrs plus. I am introducing Linux to my
              > clientele as a viable alternative, but I myself need the training, to be
              > able to offer support.
              >
              > I have a registered company (Stellar Technologies Ltd) and we sell
              > relatively high-end systems at relatively low prices. My wet dream/nightmare
              > has been that a client says, "OK, I'll take the Linux." He gets it, then
              > calls me for support on something I didn't install. Or did I?
              >
              > I am truly interested in learning Linux at least 75% as well as I know
              > DOS/WIN3.x/Win9x/WinMe. I got the corporate backing, I can get a lot more
              > from the Man, and I can get a lot of people to try this thing. Because once
              > the BS Artists come into town on you, you shovel or you smell.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Richard Jobity <richjob@...>
              > To: <TTLUG@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 4:56 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TTLUG] Has Microsoft's Plan Back-fired?
              >
              >
              > > Let me play devil's advocate here.
              > >
              > >
              > > Do you think the average IT department in Trinidad and Tobago even
              > > cares (or knows) about Linux? These are guys whose procurement of
              > > software begins and ends with the entry "Microsoft".
              > >
              > > That is, until the BSA comes calling and they realize that 95 per
              > > cent of the stuff they use is pirated/grey market/can't find the
              > > license... after they clean themselves, they look for free stuff.
              > >
              > > Or just bend over and pony up the license money.
              > >
              > > In the case of the former, users, forced to use StarOffice (never
              > > heard of it before, don't understand why the organization couldn't
              > > buy the dumb licenses), bitch all day long about the product. Simply
              > > because it doesn't work like MS Office, and they haven't learned the
              > > StarOffice equivalents of the nice little MS Office shortcuts that
              > > the companies (or they themselves) paid them to learn.
              > >
              > > Sure they consider it at the server level... until they run up
              > > against webmin. They didn't learn that in their MCSE/Aplus classes,
              > > and besides, Linux is ugly unix text anyways. Or so they think.
              > >
              > > Question is: what are we doing to change their opinions?
              > >
              > > We know better - or we should. Are we training ourselves so that if
              > > necessary we can hack an Apache server in an hour to replace an IIS
              > > bughouse?
              > >
              > > Have we played with Ximian evolution so that we can say "You are the
              > > weakest link - goodbye!" to Outlook?
              > >
              > > Can we substitute Linux/BSD software for Windows applications?
              > >
              > > Can we hack Wine/VMware/Win4Lin to make our "can't do without 'em"
              > > windows apps work fine in our open source sandbox?
              > >
              > > Can we suggest Linux replacements for stuff we use in Windows?
              > >
              > > Can we run a Linux demo if we need to?
              > >
              > > The TCO argument is usually rebutted by Microsoft by their saying
              > > that Unix/Linux professionals cost more, and that maintenance costs
              > > are higher, and that there is nobody in a company you can scream at
              > > if something goes wrong with your Linux network. And licenses aren't
              > > a large percentage of TCO anyway. So they say.
              > >
              > > what do we do? We train ourselves, and set up our Linux companies.
              > > The Caribbean is about 10 million people... there is enough room for
              > > those in our group who want to do that kind of thing. For starters.
              > > There is a market for us out there.
              > >
              > >
              > > >From what I hear, XP is Good Enough. why do we need another OS to
              > > confuse our techies?
              > >
              > >
              > > Anyone? TTLUG? (besides the group trolls, that is)
              > >
              > >
              > > --- Allistair Mitchell <stellar_tt@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > http://www.business2.com/articles/web/print/0,1650,35655,FF.html
              > > >
              > > > The word on the street is that IT departments are indeed beginning
              > > > to consider Linux or other open source software in greater numbers
              > > > as a viable alternative to Microsoft's products, particularly
              > > > Windows XP. Reasons include overwhelming cost savings in many
              > > > cases, ease of customization and performance advantages.
              > > >
              > > > "Search engine Google uses more than 10,000 cheap Linux computers
              > > > to deliver its high-performance Web searches. Google director of
              > > > technology Craig Silverstein told me that whenever the firm needs
              > > > to improve performance, it just adds more computers to the network.
              > > > That's relatively inexpensive to do, because its system runs on
              > > > cheap, off-the-shelf PCs. So far, it's working -- Google tops many
              > > > website performance tests."
              > > >
              > > > Linux * 10,000 = $Free
              > > > Windows 2000 Server * 10,000 = $millions
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > =====
              > > **************
              > > Richard Jobity, Trinidad and Tobago
              > > ICQ: 5183191; AIM: richjob; http://chanderspot.go.to
              > > calendar at http://calendar.yahoo.com/richjob
              > >
              > > "I see dead websites."
              > > http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________
              > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
              > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > TTLUG-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > TTLUG-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >


              ==========================================
              Richard "Don't call me Mr." Jobity, Trinidad and Tobago.
              http://chanderspot.go.to | ICQ: 5183191 | aim: richjob | ym: richjob
              calendar at http://calendar.yahoo.com/richjob
              ==========================================
              Be sure it's Linux...
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTLUG
              mail: richjob@... | richjob@...
              ==========================================
            • Richard Jobity
              I had that problem too. Guy shoving an adaptec CD at me to install a burner. I watch him like he mad. ... them where to get the control pannel....al the while
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 7, 2001
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                I had that problem too.

                Guy shoving an adaptec CD at me to install a burner. I watch him like he mad.



                On 7 Dec 2001 at 6:40, Vlade Malfet wrote:

                > I am trying..the other day i was at your investments. They ahd a linux box up and running. Mandrake 8.0. But they changed a piece of hardware that for soem reason hard drake did not detect on startup and it kept causing a crash. I had to show them how o manually invoke hard drake, after showing
                them where to get the control pannel....al the while explaining to them "stop thinking it';s windows. Pretend your now learning about computers....cause its different in here"
                >
                > I impressed myself. .....I got it configured and even installed the drivers of the cd for them *linux drivers*
                >
                > they were trying to get the drivers and chosing windows nt......looking for the setup.exe file.....showed them not everything is setup.exe..... like windows..the mother of all "setup.exes"
                > so i am happy...i my brain is functioning after all. :)
                >


                ==========================================
                Richard "Don't call me Mr." Jobity, Trinidad and Tobago.
                http://chanderspot.go.to | ICQ: 5183191 | aim: richjob | ym: richjob
                calendar at http://calendar.yahoo.com/richjob
                ==========================================
                Be sure it's Linux...
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTLUG
                mail: richjob@... | richjob@...
                ==========================================
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