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Re: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects

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  • piscesone123@yahoo.co.uk
    is that jakarta tomcat or another jarkata project ie Struts, Turbine or Velocity? ... From: Richard Hamel-Smith To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
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      is that jakarta tomcat or another jarkata project ie Struts, Turbine or Velocity?
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Richard Hamel-Smith
      To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:54 PM
      Subject: Re: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects


      Christian Anton wrote:
      > <rant>
      >
      > OMFG!!!
      >
      > YOUR DOCUMENTATION SUCKS ASS IN HELL!
      >
      > Is there a harder more terribly-documented install procedure for any other
      > product?? Why is Jakarta is comprised of a dozen or so strange components at
      > varying stages of development and interoperability and documentation?? Why
      > not install one single package when you can install, edit, install, edit,
      > install, copy, install, edit... Is this project TRYING to make FLOSS look
      > like a jumble of collated mess?
      >
      > I wanted to install OpenNMS, which requires Jakarta, which requires a WORLD
      > of patience and determination to deduce. I've spent the last couple hours
      > trying to figure out how to install jakarta. Man, on days like this even MS
      > products look so good. F**K jakarta and now because of that F**K OpenNMS -
      > might have been EXACTLY what I needed, but at this point.... F**K IT!!
      >
      > Good job jakarta developers, way to promote the shitty side of FLOSS
      > projects.
      >
      > </rant>
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Christian Anton


      Dude, welcome to my world. The tears and frustration I experience every
      day, trying to get things to work. Each program is hell. It requires a
      university level course to understand how to get things to work.
      Eventually, I get things working, but it just shouldn't be necessary.

      This leads me to another thought. I've spent the week at home,
      re-reading Asimov's Foundation series and now the Robot novels. One of
      the point he makes, comes home to me. It is, in fact, one of my main
      concerns with regard to the Microsoft monopoly.

      Asimov says that a society based on robots, simply loses its will to
      live. All its needs are provided for by robots, and it simply cannot do
      anything without them. He makes the point that people cannot even find
      their own way home. They've never had to learn how, so without a robot
      they can't. They don't know how to drive, even how to clothe themselves.

      The Microsoft "solution" does the same thing. An all-encompassing, warm,
      furry blanket of software that does not require the user to know
      anything about how a computer works. We are not required to "fight up"
      with the computer to get it to do something, so we simply don't know how
      to do it.

      Open source, on the other hand, requires us to fight. Just to get a
      stupid program installed, we have to fight. It makes us learn. Probably,
      it will force us to actually write documentation or even programs
      themselves.

      This is part of why I stick with it. I've learned so much. Learning is
      painful. Frustrating. I spent part of this week trying to install a
      linux driver for a winmodem on a friend's PC. Needless to say, I gave up.

      But each time I make the effort, to break through to some greater
      understanding, I feel I'm getting there.

      Understand me, I rant and rave as much as everybody else. But the
      benefit is that I learn. With Microsoft, there's nothing to learn. The
      purpose of Microsoft software is to turn us into consumers. In Bill's
      perfect world, we only exist to buy his products. It's the "American way".

      The only way to break free, of both Microsoft and the Linux installation
      hell, is to work together. It is the underlying message of the open
      source movement. Really, it is what open source is all about. Building
      communities.

      Jakarta, eh? Let me see what I can dig up.

      Richard


      Help build TTLUG by forwarding this to anyone who is interested in the
      subject matter or would otherwise benefit from joining the mailing list.

      Trinidad and Tobago Linux Users Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ttlug
      To subscribe, send an email to_______ TTLUG-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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    • Randall Maharaj
      What specifically from Jakarta are you trying to install? Tomcat? I have done about 5 Tomcat installs without many problems, perhaps you can post some of the
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
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        What specifically from Jakarta are you trying to install? Tomcat?

        I have done about 5 Tomcat installs without many problems, perhaps you can
        post some of the problems you are getting. I don't really recommend using
        Tomcat unless you have the hardware to back it up though. Probably a
        php+apache solution would work better.

        -Randall

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Christian Anton [mailto:canton@...]
        Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:59 PM
        Cc: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects


        <rant>

        OMFG!!!

        YOUR DOCUMENTATION SUCKS ASS IN HELL!

        Is there a harder more terribly-documented install procedure for any other
        product?? Why is Jakarta is comprised of a dozen or so strange components at
        varying stages of development and interoperability and documentation?? Why
        not install one single package when you can install, edit, install, edit,
        install, copy, install, edit... Is this project TRYING to make FLOSS look
        like a jumble of collated mess?

        I wanted to install OpenNMS, which requires Jakarta, which requires a WORLD
        of patience and determination to deduce. I've spent the last couple hours
        trying to figure out how to install jakarta. Man, on days like this even MS
        products look so good. F**K jakarta and now because of that F**K OpenNMS -
        might have been EXACTLY what I needed, but at this point.... F**K IT!!

        Good job jakarta developers, way to promote the shitty side of FLOSS
        projects.

        </rant>

        Cheers,
        Christian Anton





        Help build TTLUG by forwarding this to anyone who is interested in the
        subject matter or would otherwise benefit from joining the mailing list.

        Trinidad and Tobago Linux Users Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ttlug
        To subscribe, send an email to_______ TTLUG-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        To unsubscribe, send an email to_____ TTLUG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        List owner/moderator Richard Jobity__ TTLUG-owner@yahoogroups.com

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Randall Maharaj
        The only way to break free, of both Microsoft and the Linux installation hell, is to work together. It is the underlying message of the open source movement.
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
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          " The only way to break free, of both Microsoft and the Linux installation
          hell, is to work together. It is the underlying message of the open
          source movement. Really, it is what open source is all about. Building
          communities."

          Richard: Well said!


          Christian: Have patience and don't force it if it's not working right now.
          Move away from the computer and let your mind operate as it should. More
          than likely, the solution or at least a hint of it will come to you.
          Remember also that Google is your friend; it is highly likely that your
          problems were already experienced and solved elsewhere.

          Perhaps a trouble shooting template can be added to TTLUG to help members,
          something that goes like this:

          Distribution:
          Hardware:
          Software:
          Problem:

          Just a suggestion.

          -Randall

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Richard Hamel-Smith [mailto:rhamel@...]
          Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:54 PM
          To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects


          Christian Anton wrote:
          > <rant>
          >
          > OMFG!!!
          >
          > YOUR DOCUMENTATION SUCKS ASS IN HELL!
          >
          > Is there a harder more terribly-documented install procedure for any other
          > product?? Why is Jakarta is comprised of a dozen or so strange components
          at
          > varying stages of development and interoperability and documentation?? Why
          > not install one single package when you can install, edit, install, edit,
          > install, copy, install, edit... Is this project TRYING to make FLOSS look
          > like a jumble of collated mess?
          >
          > I wanted to install OpenNMS, which requires Jakarta, which requires a
          WORLD
          > of patience and determination to deduce. I've spent the last couple hours
          > trying to figure out how to install jakarta. Man, on days like this even
          MS
          > products look so good. F**K jakarta and now because of that F**K OpenNMS -
          > might have been EXACTLY what I needed, but at this point.... F**K IT!!
          >
          > Good job jakarta developers, way to promote the shitty side of FLOSS
          > projects.
          >
          > </rant>
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Christian Anton


          Dude, welcome to my world. The tears and frustration I experience every
          day, trying to get things to work. Each program is hell. It requires a
          university level course to understand how to get things to work.
          Eventually, I get things working, but it just shouldn't be necessary.

          This leads me to another thought. I've spent the week at home,
          re-reading Asimov's Foundation series and now the Robot novels. One of
          the point he makes, comes home to me. It is, in fact, one of my main
          concerns with regard to the Microsoft monopoly.

          Asimov says that a society based on robots, simply loses its will to
          live. All its needs are provided for by robots, and it simply cannot do
          anything without them. He makes the point that people cannot even find
          their own way home. They've never had to learn how, so without a robot
          they can't. They don't know how to drive, even how to clothe themselves.

          The Microsoft "solution" does the same thing. An all-encompassing, warm,
          furry blanket of software that does not require the user to know
          anything about how a computer works. We are not required to "fight up"
          with the computer to get it to do something, so we simply don't know how
          to do it.

          Open source, on the other hand, requires us to fight. Just to get a
          stupid program installed, we have to fight. It makes us learn. Probably,
          it will force us to actually write documentation or even programs
          themselves.

          This is part of why I stick with it. I've learned so much. Learning is
          painful. Frustrating. I spent part of this week trying to install a
          linux driver for a winmodem on a friend's PC. Needless to say, I gave up.

          But each time I make the effort, to break through to some greater
          understanding, I feel I'm getting there.

          Understand me, I rant and rave as much as everybody else. But the
          benefit is that I learn. With Microsoft, there's nothing to learn. The
          purpose of Microsoft software is to turn us into consumers. In Bill's
          perfect world, we only exist to buy his products. It's the "American way".

          The only way to break free, of both Microsoft and the Linux installation
          hell, is to work together. It is the underlying message of the open
          source movement. Really, it is what open source is all about. Building
          communities.

          Jakarta, eh? Let me see what I can dig up.

          Richard



          Help build TTLUG by forwarding this to anyone who is interested in the
          subject matter or would otherwise benefit from joining the mailing list.

          Trinidad and Tobago Linux Users Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ttlug
          To subscribe, send an email to_______ TTLUG-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          To unsubscribe, send an email to_____ TTLUG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          List owner/moderator Richard Jobity__ TTLUG-owner@yahoogroups.com

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Raul Bermudez
          Oh, now I see, Ross politely took the !@#$ context out of what Christian had to say about Jakarta. With all the bombs going off in the place these days, I
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
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            Oh, now I see, Ross 'politely' took the !@#$ context out of what Christian
            had to say about Jakarta. With all the bombs going off in the place these
            days, I should surprise no one that I took issue with what he said. ;)

            What does someone called Christian mean when he says: OMFG!!! ?

            Raul

            --

            >
            > From: "Randall Maharaj" <wolfie@...>
            > Reply-To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 03:55:42 -0400
            > To: <TTLUG@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: RE: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects
            >
            >
            > What specifically from Jakarta are you trying to install? Tomcat?
            >
            > I have done about 5 Tomcat installs without many problems, perhaps you can
            > post some of the problems you are getting. I don't really recommend using
            > Tomcat unless you have the hardware to back it up though. Probably a
            > php+apache solution would work better.
            >
            > -Randall
            >
            >>
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: Christian Anton [mailto:canton@...]
            >> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:59 PM
            >> Cc: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects
            >>
            >>
            >> <rant>
            >>
            >> OMFG!!!
            >>
            >> YOUR DOCUMENTATION SUCKS ASS IN HELL!
            >>
            >> Is there a harder more terribly-documented install procedure for any other
            >> product?? Why is Jakarta is comprised of a dozen or so strange components at
            >> varying stages of development and interoperability and documentation?? Why
            >> not install one single package when you can install, edit, install, edit,
            >> install, copy, install, edit... Is this project TRYING to make FLOSS look
            >> like a jumble of collated mess?
            >>
            >> I wanted to install OpenNMS, which requires Jakarta, which requires a WORLD
            >> of patience and determination to deduce. I've spent the last couple hours
            >> trying to figure out how to install jakarta. Man, on days like this even MS
            >> products look so good. F**K jakarta and now because of that F**K OpenNMS -
            >> might have been EXACTLY what I needed, but at this point.... F**K IT!!
            >>
            >> Good job jakarta developers, way to promote the shitty side of FLOSS
            >> projects.
            >>
            >> </rant>
            >>
            >> Cheers,
            >> Christian Anton
            >>
          • Ross Gardler
            ... I do wear a feather, but I am *not* part of Jakarta. I am a part of the XML project. A totally separate divison of Apache. ... Documentation is weak on
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
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              Raul Bermudez wrote:
              >
              > I do not know about Jakarta, and probably do not need to, but this reeks of
              > censorship by our friend who happens top wear a feather in his cap.

              I do wear a feather, but I am *not* part of Jakarta. I am a part of the
              XML project. A totally separate divison of Apache.

              > Christian posed the question: "Is there a harder more terribly-documented
              > install procedure for any other product?" There could have been and easy
              > answer to that, and perhaps an explanation that documentation is always the
              > weakest aspect of open source development.

              Documentation is weak on many projects. However, the Jakarta project
              specialises in the creation of tools for programmers, not end users.

              Tomcat is the exception, but I can't believe this is the product being
              referred to as there are one click installers and hundreds of articles
              on how to install that product.

              > I am just wondering Ross, if Christian had done all the things you say he
              > should have done first, at what stage would he be 'allowed' to form the
              > opinion that the documentation was bad?

              At the point it is factual and intelligable. One cannot say that "the
              documentation is bad" when one is talking about a community. There is
              *no* documentation for a community only for the projects within it.

              However, had Christian mail stopped at that point I may have accepted
              the argument. However, it didn't it went on to say that it is an example
              of a bad project. Ignoring the factual error that it (Jakarta) is not a
              project but a community I have to say that the evidence of the hundreds
              of high profile users of Jakarta products would indicate it is a *good*
              example of an Open Source project not a bad one.

              This is *not* personal opinion this is *fact* - take a look at the many
              falgship products by commercial and Open Source vendors that include
              Apache Jakarta code.

              The other thing is that I have seen *no* posts from Christian on any of
              the many Apacha Jakarata mailing lists I am a part of. When one has
              given the community a chance then one is at liberty to complain, when
              one simply complains one is a whinger (Christian, I appologise if you
              have been active on lists I am not a member of, I did fo a few archive
              searches *before* sending my original mail, but I may have been wrong).

              TTLUG is supposed to promote Open SOurce - this is the opposite.

              > If you were to apply the same criteria of fairness to the problems you, all
              > of you, claim to have with Microsoft products, we would have to exonerate
              > them from anything wrong doing.

              There is one *MASSIVE* difference. One *PAYS* microsoft and therefore
              has a right to expect them to put effort into the polish on their
              products. The sad fact is that most (not all) such companies polish
              their documentation and igrnore their code.

              On the other hand, if someone wants a load of documenation for any of
              the Open Source projects in Jakarta, or anywhere else, they can pay any
              member of the community to develop it for them. Once they have done that
              then they can complain.

              > It is not sufficient that in most cases 'you' get extremely good assistance
              > from the Jakarta community when you ask for help, as this may have something
              > to do with your having an apache.org e-mail address.

              Bullshit - I have only had an Apache.org email address for a year. I
              have used Apache products for nearly 10 years.

              People on this list need to learn more about "FLOSS" before they start
              ranting and raving - use it and contribute to it!

              I have said my last on this. I *earnt* my feather in my cap (Apache
              membership). Today I was (coincedentally) rewarded with membership of a
              Proejct Management Committe at Apache) - this membership has been
              awarded to me because I am highly effective in assisting new users via
              the users mailing list.

              Don't go talking crap about having to have an Apache mail address to get
              assistence - you simply have to know how to ask questions and interpret
              answers.

              I have said my last

              Ross
            • piscesone123@yahoo.co.uk
              Randall... you said you wouldn t recommend using Tomcat unless you had the hardware But what if you have to use JSP and Servelets? I tried to ColdDFusion with
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Randall... you said you wouldn't recommend using Tomcat unless you had the hardware
                But what if you have to use JSP and Servelets?
                I tried to ColdDFusion with JRun, as JRun supposed to be a fairly good J2EE container, but I went back to Tomcat.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Randall Maharaj
                To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 3:55 AM
                Subject: RE: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects


                What specifically from Jakarta are you trying to install? Tomcat?

                I have done about 5 Tomcat installs without many problems, perhaps you can
                post some of the problems you are getting. I don't really recommend using
                Tomcat unless you have the hardware to back it up though. Probably a
                php+apache solution would work better.

                -Randall

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Christian Anton [mailto:canton@...]
                Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:59 PM
                Cc: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects


                <rant>

                OMFG!!!

                YOUR DOCUMENTATION SUCKS ASS IN HELL!

                Is there a harder more terribly-documented install procedure for any other
                product?? Why is Jakarta is comprised of a dozen or so strange components at
                varying stages of development and interoperability and documentation?? Why
                not install one single package when you can install, edit, install, edit,
                install, copy, install, edit... Is this project TRYING to make FLOSS look
                like a jumble of collated mess?

                I wanted to install OpenNMS, which requires Jakarta, which requires a WORLD
                of patience and determination to deduce. I've spent the last couple hours
                trying to figure out how to install jakarta. Man, on days like this even MS
                products look so good. F**K jakarta and now because of that F**K OpenNMS -
                might have been EXACTLY what I needed, but at this point.... F**K IT!!

                Good job jakarta developers, way to promote the shitty side of FLOSS
                projects.

                </rant>

                Cheers,
                Christian Anton





                Help build TTLUG by forwarding this to anyone who is interested in the
                subject matter or would otherwise benefit from joining the mailing list.

                Trinidad and Tobago Linux Users Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ttlug
                To subscribe, send an email to_______ TTLUG-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                To unsubscribe, send an email to_____ TTLUG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                List owner/moderator Richard Jobity__ TTLUG-owner@yahoogroups.com

                Yahoo! Groups Links










                Help build TTLUG by forwarding this to anyone who is interested in the
                subject matter or would otherwise benefit from joining the mailing list.

                Trinidad and Tobago Linux Users Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ttlug
                To subscribe, send an email to_______ TTLUG-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                To unsubscribe, send an email to_____ TTLUG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                List owner/moderator Richard Jobity__ TTLUG-owner@yahoogroups.com



                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                ADVERTISEMENT





                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTLUG/

                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                TTLUG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Raul Bermudez
                I did not mean to ruffle your feather. ;) --
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
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                  I did not mean to ruffle your feather. ;)

                  --

                  >
                  > From: Ross Gardler <ross@...>
                  > Reply-To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 17:46:31 +0100
                  > To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects
                  >
                  >
                  > Bullshit...
                  >
                • Ross Gardler
                  ... I would agree with Randell with versions of Tomcat prior to verstion 5. It is a little on the sluggish side to say the least. However, one must understand
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    piscesone123@... wrote:
                    > Randall... you said you wouldn't recommend using Tomcat unless you had
                    > the hardware
                    > But what if you have to use JSP and Servelets?
                    > I tried to ColdDFusion with JRun, as JRun supposed to be a fairly good
                    > J2EE container, but I went back to Tomcat.

                    I would agree with Randell with versions of Tomcat prior to verstion 5.
                    It is a little on the sluggish side to say the least. However, one must
                    understand that Tomcat is the official reference implementation of the
                    JSP and servlet specifications. It is *not* intended to be the most
                    efficient.

                    That being said version 5 is a massive improvement in terms of
                    performance after some pretty serious internal optimisation. However, I
                    have not stress tested it myself so can on pass on what I have heard.

                    If you want to run JSP and Servlet stuff in I highly recomend Jetty
                    (http://jetty.mortbay.org).

                    Ross
                  • Ross Gardler
                    ... But that is what you are hear for isn t it? Someone has to strip the niceties away and pull the real opinions out, and you are a master at such things ;-)
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Raul Bermudez wrote:
                      >
                      > I did not mean to ruffle your feather. ;)
                      >

                      But that is what you are hear for isn't it? Someone has to strip the
                      niceties away and pull the real opinions out, and you are a master at
                      such things ;-)

                      Ross
                    • Raul Bermudez
                      Just about the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. THANKS! -Don t go naming your first child after me, however, I do not particularly care for Raul
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 9, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Just about the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. THANKS!

                        -Don't go naming your first child after me, however, I do not particularly
                        care for Raul (sic) myself.

                        :)

                        --

                        >
                        > From: Ross Gardler <ross@...>
                        > Reply-To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:33:16 +0100
                        > To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects
                        >
                        >
                        > Raul Bermudez wrote:
                        >>
                        >> I did not mean to ruffle your feather. ;)
                        >>
                        >
                        > But that is what you are hear for isn't it? Someone has to strip the
                        > niceties away and pull the real opinions out, and you are a master at
                        > such things ;-)
                        >
                        > Ross
                        >
                      • Ross Gardler
                        ... Good idea, I would like to make an additional suggestion. The TTLUG should develop a document telling people *how* to work with Open Source software and
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 10, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Randall Maharaj wrote:
                          > " The only way to break free, of both Microsoft and the Linux installation
                          > hell, is to work together. It is the underlying message of the open
                          > source movement. Really, it is what open source is all about. Building
                          > communities."
                          >
                          > Richard: Well said!
                          >
                          >
                          > Christian: Have patience and don't force it if it's not working right now.
                          > Move away from the computer and let your mind operate as it should. More
                          > than likely, the solution or at least a hint of it will come to you.
                          > Remember also that Google is your friend; it is highly likely that your
                          > problems were already experienced and solved elsewhere.
                          >
                          > Perhaps a trouble shooting template can be added to TTLUG to help members,
                          > something that goes like this:
                          >

                          Good idea, I would like to make an additional suggestion. The TTLUG
                          should develop a document telling people *how* to work with Open Source
                          software and communities (I am volunteering to do this if TTLUG think it
                          would be useful & post it once a month to this list, or whatever is
                          appropriate to give it exposure - however I am not willing to spend my
                          time on it if it is just going to dissapear into the cracks that TTLUG has).

                          Outline of such a document would be:

                          What does Open Source provide - what does it *not* provide.

                          How to find open source products (and how to spot the lemons)

                          How to read open source "documentation"

                          How to search the real documentation (newsgroups, mailing lists, forums)

                          How to ask questions of Open Source communities

                          How to work with the community to find answers

                          How to contribute to Open source (without programming)

                          Ross
                        • Shivan Jaikaran
                          ... It wouldnt disappear, trust me. Shivan
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 10, 2004
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                            > Good idea, I would like to make an additional suggestion. The TTLUG
                            > should develop a document telling people *how* to work with Open Source
                            > software and communities (I am volunteering to do this if TTLUG think it
                            > would be useful & post it once a month to this list, or whatever is
                            > appropriate to give it exposure - however I am not willing to spend my
                            > time on it if it is just going to dissapear into the cracks that TTLUG has).
                            >

                            It wouldnt disappear, trust me.

                            Shivan
                          • Allan Samaroo
                            Ross, I m sure Anil wouldn t mind posting it on www.opentutorials.com. Allan.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 10, 2004
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                              Ross,

                              I'm sure Anil wouldn't mind posting it on www.opentutorials.com.

                              Allan.




                              >
                              > Good idea, I would like to make an additional suggestion. The
                              > TTLUG should develop a document telling people *how* to work
                              > with Open Source software and communities (I am volunteering
                              > to do this if TTLUG think it would be useful & post it once a
                              > month to this list, or whatever is appropriate to give it
                              > exposure - however I am not willing to spend my time on it if
                              > it is just going to dissapear into the cracks that TTLUG has).
                              >
                              > Outline of such a document would be:
                              >
                            • Randall Maharaj
                              It depends on what kind of solution you are trying to provide. Most of my solutions work nicely with php, mysql and zend. The zend code accelerator really
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 10, 2004
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                                It depends on what kind of solution you are trying to provide. Most of my
                                solutions work nicely with php, mysql and zend. The zend code accelerator
                                really brings everything up to enterprise standard.

                                -Randall

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: piscesone123@... [mailto:piscesone123@...]
                                Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 12:55 PM
                                To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects


                                Randall... you said you wouldn't recommend using Tomcat unless you had the
                                hardware
                                But what if you have to use JSP and Servelets?
                                I tried to ColdDFusion with JRun, as JRun supposed to be a fairly good J2EE
                                container, but I went back to Tomcat.

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Randall Maharaj
                                To: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 3:55 AM
                                Subject: RE: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects


                                What specifically from Jakarta are you trying to install? Tomcat?

                                I have done about 5 Tomcat installs without many problems, perhaps you can
                                post some of the problems you are getting. I don't really recommend using
                                Tomcat unless you have the hardware to back it up though. Probably a
                                php+apache solution would work better.

                                -Randall

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Christian Anton [mailto:canton@...]
                                Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:59 PM
                                Cc: TTLUG@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [TTLUG] FW: Jakarta - A study in self defeating projects


                                <rant>

                                OMFG!!!

                                YOUR DOCUMENTATION SUCKS ASS IN HELL!

                                Is there a harder more terribly-documented install procedure for any other
                                product?? Why is Jakarta is comprised of a dozen or so strange components
                                at
                                varying stages of development and interoperability and documentation?? Why
                                not install one single package when you can install, edit, install, edit,
                                install, copy, install, edit... Is this project TRYING to make FLOSS look
                                like a jumble of collated mess?

                                I wanted to install OpenNMS, which requires Jakarta, which requires a
                                WORLD
                                of patience and determination to deduce. I've spent the last couple hours
                                trying to figure out how to install jakarta. Man, on days like this even
                                MS
                                products look so good. F**K jakarta and now because of that F**K OpenNMS -
                                might have been EXACTLY what I needed, but at this point.... F**K IT!!

                                Good job jakarta developers, way to promote the shitty side of FLOSS
                                projects.

                                </rant>

                                Cheers,
                                Christian Anton





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                              • Ross Gardler
                                ... Well yourself and Allan (via a promise of Anils cooperation which I m sure Anil will stand by) behind it I will put together a starter document under the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 10, 2004
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                                  Shivan Jaikaran wrote:
                                  > > Good idea, I would like to make an additional suggestion. The TTLUG
                                  > > should develop a document telling people *how* to work with Open Source
                                  > > software and communities (I am volunteering to do this if TTLUG think it
                                  > > would be useful & post it once a month to this list, or whatever is
                                  > > appropriate to give it exposure - however I am not willing to spend my
                                  > > time on it if it is just going to dissapear into the cracks that
                                  > TTLUG has).
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > It wouldnt disappear, trust me.

                                  Well yourself and Allan (via a promise of Anils cooperation which I'm
                                  sure Anil will stand by) behind it I will put together a starter
                                  document under the creative commons attribution license
                                  (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/). This means you folk can
                                  improve on it and I sure hope you do.

                                  I'll have it with you in a few days.

                                  Ross
                                • Allan Samaroo
                                  ... I ll also have a link to it from the CIS website when it s back up. I was planning to have a sort of FLOS primer there anyway............
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 10, 2004
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                                    >
                                    > Well yourself and Allan (via a promise of Anils cooperation
                                    > which I'm sure Anil will stand by) behind it I will put
                                    > together a starter document under the creative commons
                                    > attribution license
                                    > (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/). This means you
                                    > folk can improve on it and I sure hope you do.
                                    >
                                    > I'll have it with you in a few days.
                                    >
                                    > Ross


                                    I'll also have a link to it from the CIS website when it's back up. I was
                                    planning to have a sort of FLOS primer there anyway............
                                  • Christian Anton
                                    Thanks guys, I ve been away from this list for a while (feels like a really long time) that rant was a desperate gasp. I have to say though, that calm
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 12, 2004
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                                      Thanks guys,

                                      I've been away from this list for a while (feels like a really long time)
                                      that rant was a desperate gasp. I have to say though, that calm thoughtful
                                      discussion by Richard, Raul, Ross and Randall (conspiracy of the R's??)
                                      following my obscene post has managed to leave me humbled and amazed.

                                      Needlessly, I have prevailed. In the next few days I will install the
                                      OpenNMS software, test it, compare it to it's competitors, and remove it.
                                      Sadly I will never install OpenNMS in production, no matter how well it
                                      fits. The technology got in the way of the solution.

                                      I'm not interested in reference models, developer tools; java's finer
                                      points. I have a need to manage a network. I need a tool. That tool requires
                                      Tomcat 4 (Kitchen Sink). I need another tool. Sometimes you just need the
                                      darn thing to work.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Christian Anton
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