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Signal Meter

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  • Michael Mannchen
    Hello to everyone! Question about the signal meter on the TMD700. At full strength, the meter has 7 bars. Does one bar have the equivalent of 2 S units or
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 5, 2003
      Hello to everyone!
      Question about the signal meter on the TMD700.
      At full strength, the meter has 7 bars.
      Does one "bar" have the equivalent of 2 S units or how does this
      thing work? The manual doesn't really state. I know the G707A shows
      S units up to 9 then units OVER 9.

      Mike - K9DRX

      ________________________________________
      Michael Mannchen - K9DRX@...
      K9DRX / WPUS235 Sheboygan, WI USA
      Sheboygan County Radio & Scanning Resource:
      http://www.geocities.com/trirychewi/index.html
      ________________________________________
    • smpeterson
      Mike, I think the bars show relative signal strength. I ve compared the signal meter on my TM-D700A to my FT-100D and there is no correlation. The 100D has an
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 5, 2003
        Mike,

        I think the bars show relative signal strength. I've compared the signal
        meter on my TM-D700A to my FT-100D and there is no correlation. The 100D has
        an LCD signal strength meter which goes up to 60dB over 9.

        73,

        Steven/KG6JEV

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Michael Mannchen [mailto:k9drx@...]
        Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 6:28 PM
        To: TMD700A@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TMD700A] Signal Meter


        Hello to everyone!
        Question about the signal meter on the TMD700.
        At full strength, the meter has 7 bars.
        Does one "bar" have the equivalent of 2 S units or how does this
        thing work? The manual doesn't really state. I know the G707A shows
        S units up to 9 then units OVER 9.

        Mike - K9DRX
      • Frank Kibbish, Jr. <wb6mrq@arrl.net>
        For what it s worth, Collins Radio defined the S-unit in the 50 s. Over time, there have been a variety of variations on this scale, with some manufacturers
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 8, 2003
          For what it's worth, Collins Radio defined the S-unit in the 50's.
          Over time, there have been a variety of variations on this scale,
          with some manufacturers seemingly just making it up as they went
          along.

          But in 1978, the IARU Region 1 adopted the following values that have
          been pretty much standard in the US ever since: S1 is equal to –121
          dBm (0.2 uV), with 6 dB per S-unit to give an S9 level of -73 dBm
          (50.15 uV). (Above 144 MHz, the values were all shifted by 20 dB
          such that S1 was –141 dBm [19.96 nV] and S9 was –93 dBm [5.01 uV].
          The reason for the 20 dB difference above 144 MHz had to do with the
          then-common use of VHF converters on HF radios at the time. I don't
          know if manufacturers still adhere to this standard above 144 MHz or
          not.)

          So the "de facto" standard for S9 is 50 uV (S9) at 50 ohms.

          S-meters were (and often still are) standard equipment on HF radios
          manufactured for use in the US. They are not nearly as common on
          VHF/UHF FM rigs, however, since the scale isn't really as useful with
          FM as with SSB and CW. (The exception here, of course, would be
          VHF/UHF rigs that are capable of SSB and/or CW. I have seen several
          of those with S-meters.)

          In FM, quieting level (often expressed as a percentage) is usually
          more meaningful to the other station than an S-meter reading.
          Consequently, most VHF/UHF radio manufacturers of FM rigs have simply
          installed signal strength meters that indicate relative signal
          strength with no particular scale involved. It's possible that some
          VHF/UHF FM radios do indeed have actual S-meters on them, but I don't
          know anyone that uses S-units as a means of quantifying FM signals.

          73,
          Frank WB6MRQ

          --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, Kevin <k4pcs@b...> wrote:
          > As displayed on all those calibrated s-unit meters out there I
          > suppose....
          >
          > Kevin/K4PCS
          >
          > Michael Mannchen wrote:
          >
          > > The reason I asked is because I have no way to give someone a
          signal
          > > report or
          > > compare signal levels with someone on a common signal. Unless I
          buy
          > > an external
          > > signal meter which I don't really want to add more connections in
          the
          > > system.
          > > An S-unit is the standard signal strength unit generally used on
          VHF
          > > or UHF.
          > >
          > >
        • Frank Kibbish, Jr. <wb6mrq@arrl.net>
          Now having explained the standard in my previous post, let me point out that manufacturers do a terrible job of living up to the 6 dB per S-unit standard. If
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 8, 2003
            Now having explained the standard in my previous post, let me point
            out that manufacturers do a terrible job of living up to the 6 dB per
            S-unit standard.

            If you're curious about this topic, take a look at the article posted
            by W8WWV on his web site:
            http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Amateur%
            20Radio/Experimentation/SMeterBlues.htm

            His testing is on HF rigs, not VHF/UHF, but it shows the
            inconsistency of S-meters even within the same model of rig.

            The bottom line is that S-meters are convenient, but since the
            standard isn't adhered to, they are not necessarily any better than a
            generic signal strength meter -- just like the signal strength meter
            on the TMD-700A! :-)

            73,
            Frank WB6MRQ


            --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Kibbish, Jr. <wb6mrq@a...>"
            <wb6mrq@a...> wrote:
            > For what it's worth, Collins Radio defined the S-unit in the 50's.
            > Over time, there have been a variety of variations on this scale,
            > with some manufacturers seemingly just making it up as they went
            > along.
            >
            > But in 1978, the IARU Region 1 adopted the following values that
            have
            > been pretty much standard in the US ever since: S1 is equal to
            –
            121
            > dBm (0.2 uV), with 6 dB per S-unit to give an S9 level of -73 dBm
            > (50.15 uV). (Above 144 MHz, the values were all shifted by 20 dB
            > such that S1 was –141 dBm [19.96 nV] and S9 was –93 dBm
            [5.01 uV].
            > The reason for the 20 dB difference above 144 MHz had to do with
            the
            > then-common use of VHF converters on HF radios at the time. I
            don't
            > know if manufacturers still adhere to this standard above 144 MHz
            or
            > not.)
            >
            > So the "de facto" standard for S9 is 50 uV (S9) at 50 ohms.
            >
            > S-meters were (and often still are) standard equipment on HF radios
            > manufactured for use in the US. They are not nearly as common on
            > VHF/UHF FM rigs, however, since the scale isn't really as useful
            with
            > FM as with SSB and CW. (The exception here, of course, would be
            > VHF/UHF rigs that are capable of SSB and/or CW. I have seen several
            > of those with S-meters.)
            >
            > In FM, quieting level (often expressed as a percentage) is usually
            > more meaningful to the other station than an S-meter reading.
            > Consequently, most VHF/UHF radio manufacturers of FM rigs have
            simply
            > installed signal strength meters that indicate relative signal
            > strength with no particular scale involved. It's possible that
            some
            > VHF/UHF FM radios do indeed have actual S-meters on them, but I
            don't
            > know anyone that uses S-units as a means of quantifying FM signals.
            >
            > 73,
            > Frank WB6MRQ
            >
            > --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, Kevin <k4pcs@b...> wrote:
            > > As displayed on all those calibrated s-unit meters out there I
            > > suppose....
            > >
            > > Kevin/K4PCS
            > >
            > > Michael Mannchen wrote:
            > >
            > > > The reason I asked is because I have no way to give someone a
            > signal
            > > > report or
            > > > compare signal levels with someone on a common signal. Unless
            I
            > buy
            > > > an external
            > > > signal meter which I don't really want to add more connections
            in
            > the
            > > > system.
            > > > An S-unit is the standard signal strength unit generally used
            on
            > VHF
            > > > or UHF.
            > > >
            > > >
          • Dale Blanchard
            What difference does it make. I tell them i can hear them or not., If i cant hear them I am not talking to them. No body likes my s reports, that is why they
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 8, 2003
              What difference does it make. I tell them i can hear them or not., If i
              cant hear them I am not talking to them. No body likes my s reports,
              that is why they do not want to talk to me.. It is like a woman asking
              if I look good in this horrible dress,.
              I want to talk to some one . dont care about s reports or weather. I
              prefere tech talk.

              Frank Kibbish, Jr. wrote:

              >Now having explained the standard in my previous post, let me point
              >out that manufacturers do a terrible job of living up to the 6 dB per
              >S-unit standard.
              >
              >If you're curious about this topic, take a look at the article posted
              >by W8WWV on his web site:
              >http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Amateur%
              >20Radio/Experimentation/SMeterBlues.htm
              >
              >His testing is on HF rigs, not VHF/UHF, but it shows the
              >inconsistency of S-meters even within the same model of rig.
              >
              >The bottom line is that S-meters are convenient, but since the
              >standard isn't adhered to, they are not necessarily any better than a
              >generic signal strength meter -- just like the signal strength meter
              >on the TMD-700A! :-)
              >
              >73,
              > Frank WB6MRQ
              >
              >
              >--- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Kibbish, Jr. <wb6mrq@a...>"
              ><wb6mrq@a...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>For what it's worth, Collins Radio defined the S-unit in the 50's.
              >>Over time, there have been a variety of variations on this scale,
              >>with some manufacturers seemingly just making it up as they went
              >>along.
              >>
              >>But in 1978, the IARU Region 1 adopted the following values that
              >>
              >>
              >have
              >
              >
              >>been pretty much standard in the US ever since: S1 is equal to
              >>
              >>
              >
              >121
              >
              >
              >>dBm (0.2 uV), with 6 dB per S-unit to give an S9 level of -73 dBm
              >>(50.15 uV). (Above 144 MHz, the values were all shifted by 20 dB
              >>such that S1 was 141 dBm [19.96 nV] and S9 was 93 dBm
              >>
              >>
              >[5.01 uV].
              >
              >
              >>The reason for the 20 dB difference above 144 MHz had to do with
              >>
              >>
              >the
              >
              >
              >>then-common use of VHF converters on HF radios at the time. I
              >>
              >>
              >don't
              >
              >
              >>know if manufacturers still adhere to this standard above 144 MHz
              >>
              >>
              >or
              >
              >
              >>not.)
              >>
              >>So the "de facto" standard for S9 is 50 uV (S9) at 50 ohms.
              >>
              >>S-meters were (and often still are) standard equipment on HF radios
              >>manufactured for use in the US. They are not nearly as common on
              >>VHF/UHF FM rigs, however, since the scale isn't really as useful
              >>
              >>
              >with
              >
              >
              >>FM as with SSB and CW. (The exception here, of course, would be
              >>VHF/UHF rigs that are capable of SSB and/or CW. I have seen several
              >>of those with S-meters.)
              >>
              >>In FM, quieting level (often expressed as a percentage) is usually
              >>more meaningful to the other station than an S-meter reading.
              >>Consequently, most VHF/UHF radio manufacturers of FM rigs have
              >>
              >>
              >simply
              >
              >
              >>installed signal strength meters that indicate relative signal
              >>strength with no particular scale involved. It's possible that
              >>
              >>
              >some
              >
              >
              >>VHF/UHF FM radios do indeed have actual S-meters on them, but I
              >>
              >>
              >don't
              >
              >
              >>know anyone that uses S-units as a means of quantifying FM signals.
              >>
              >>73,
              >>Frank WB6MRQ
              >>
              >>--- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, Kevin <k4pcs@b...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>>As displayed on all those calibrated s-unit meters out there I
              >>>suppose....
              >>>
              >>>Kevin/K4PCS
              >>>
              >>>Michael Mannchen wrote:
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>> The reason I asked is because I have no way to give someone a
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>signal
              >>
              >>
              >>>>report or
              >>>>compare signal levels with someone on a common signal. Unless
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >I
              >
              >
              >>buy
              >>
              >>
              >>>>an external
              >>>>signal meter which I don't really want to add more connections
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >in
              >
              >
              >>the
              >>
              >>
              >>>>system.
              >>>>An S-unit is the standard signal strength unit generally used
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >on
              >
              >
              >>VHF
              >>
              >>
              >>>>or UHF.
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >
              >
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              >
              >Shortcut URL to this page:
              > http://www.onelist.com/community/TMD700A
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Phil Reed
              You could tell them on a relative scale instead of an absolute S-scale. (What is that, the QST 1 through 5 ratings)? Or you could make something up. On the
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 9, 2003
                You could tell them on a relative scale instead of an absolute S-scale.
                (What is that, the QST 1 through 5 ratings)? Or you could make something up.

                On the other hand, if all they want is a signal report, that's not much of
                a conversation, is it?

                >What difference does it make. I tell them i can hear them or not., If i
                >cant hear them I am not talking to them. No body likes my s reports,
                >that is why they do not want to talk to me.. It is like a woman asking
                >if I look good in this horrible dress,.
                >I want to talk to some one . dont care about s reports or weather. I
                >prefere tech talk.

                ---

                ...phil / w8sca

                "For a list of all the ways technology has failed
                to improve the quality of life, press 3."
              • Eric J Foster
                I always found that if I could hear the other station, that s all that counted! :-) ... -- Oh, don t fuss, I just cut myself, it s no big deal REALLY means:
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 9, 2003
                  I always found that if I could hear the other station, that's all that
                  counted! :-)

                  Phil Reed wrote:

                  > You could tell them on a relative scale instead of an absolute S-scale.
                  > (What is that, the QST 1 through 5 ratings)? Or you could make
                  > something up.
                  >
                  > On the other hand, if all they want is a signal report, that's not
                  > much of
                  > a conversation, is it?
                  >
                  > >What difference does it make. I tell them i can hear them or not., If i
                  > >cant hear them I am not talking to them. No body likes my s reports,
                  > >that is why they do not want to talk to me.. It is like a woman asking
                  > >if I look good in this horrible dress,.
                  > >I want to talk to some one . dont care about s reports or weather. I
                  > >prefere tech talk.
                  >
                  > ---
                  >
                  > ...phil / w8sca
                  >
                  > "For a list of all the ways technology has failed
                  > to improve the quality of life, press 3."
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  "Oh, don't fuss, I just cut myself, it's no big deal
                  " REALLY means: "I have actually severed a limb, and
                  will bleed to death before I admit that I'm hurt."


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