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Local Cross Band into remote repeater problem

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  • Bruce C
    I am looking at using the cross band repeater on my D700A to extend the range of my D7A HT into a wide area repeater. The problem is that if I use the D700A to
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 5, 2010
      I am looking at using the cross band repeater on my D700A to extend the range of my D7A HT into a wide area repeater. The problem is that if I use the D700A to repeat both RX and TX, I can't successfully repeat the D7 transitions until the wide area repeater drops its carrier.

      I have tried only repeating the HT transition and receiving from the wide area repeater directly. This works OK as long as the HT can receive the remote repeater. In many situations, such as being inside of a building with the D700A outside, direct reception of wide area repeater the by the HT isn't possible.

      Any advice on getting it to work both ways would be appreciated.

      73s
      Bruce
      KG4HLZ
    • noskosteve
      Bruce, Common problem There is one common fix. *IF* the voice repeater runs TONE on transmit, AND *IF* it is set up to send Tone *ONLY* while
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 5, 2010
        Bruce, Common problem

        There is one common fix. *IF* the voice repeater runs TONE on transmit, AND *IF* it is set up to send Tone *ONLY* while the _repeater's receiver_ detects Tone; then you can set the D700 to use CTCSS "CT" on the Voice repeater side. This way the D700 squelch closes when the other mobile (station using the voice repeater) de-keys. This is used here on the local repeater specifficlly for this reason.

        In addition, if the voice repeater is set up *not* to send Tone during CW ID, then you don't hear the ID (can be desired or undesired according to preference)

        --
        73, Steve, K9DCI USN (Vet) MOT (Ret) Ham (Yet)

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        --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C" <phillybruce@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am looking at using the cross band repeater on my D700A to extend the range of my D7A HT into a wide area repeater. The problem is that if I use the D700A to repeat both RX and TX, I can't successfully repeat the D7 transitions until the wide area repeater drops its carrier.
        >
        > I have tried only repeating the HT transition and receiving from the wide area repeater directly. This works OK as long as the HT can receive the remote repeater. In many situations, such as being inside of a building with the D700A outside, direct reception of wide area repeater the by the HT isn't possible.
        >
        > Any advice on getting it to work both ways would be appreciated.
        >
        > 73s
        > Bruce, KG4HLZ
        >
      • noskosteve
        ... Forgot. If you have an older D700 that doesn t have the fix, your cross-band audio will sound very muffled. Kenwood used the wrong audio shaping. There
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 5, 2010
          --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C" <phillybruce@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am looking at using the cross band repeater on my D700A to extend the range of my D7A HT into a wide area repeater.

          Forgot. If you have an older D700 that doesn't have the fix, your cross-band audio will sound very muffled. Kenwood used the wrong audio shaping. There is a Kenwood bulletin with the correct fix. I plotted all three and fixed mine. I'm prety sure it is in the Files Area of this group. With all due respect to his work, Bill Reynold's fix (I think his call is K8DNE) is not correct, but sort of close.

          73, Steve
        • K8DNE
          ... Hey, Hey, Steve. At my age, Close Counts.....heeheeheeeee. Be safe, always, y all. -- Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity. W H
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 5, 2010
            On 9/5/2010 8:46 PM, noskosteve wrote:
            >
            > --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TMD700A%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "Bruce C" <phillybruce@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I am looking at using the cross band repeater on my D700A to extend
            > the range of my D7A HT into a wide area repeater.
            >
            > Forgot. If you have an older D700 that doesn't have the fix, your
            > cross-band audio will sound very muffled. Kenwood used the wrong audio
            > shaping. There is a Kenwood bulletin with the correct fix. I plotted all
            > three and fixed mine. I'm prety sure it is in the Files Area of this
            > group. With all due respect to his work, Bill Reynold's fix (I think his
            > call is K8DNE) is not correct, but sort of close.

            Hey, Hey, Steve. At my age, Close Counts.....heeheeheeeee.

            Be safe, always, y'all.


            --
            Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

            W H Reynolds, K8DNE
            Rowlett, TX RACES Radio Officer
          • Bob Burns W9RXR
            ... Therein lies the basic problem with cross-band repeaters in most dual-band amateur radios. If the cross-band repeat radio is listening to an incoming
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 5, 2010
              At 06:11 PM 9/5/2010, Bruce C wrote:

              >The problem is that if I use the D700A to repeat both RX and TX, I
              >can't successfully repeat the D7 transitions until the wide area
              >repeater drops its carrier.

              Therein lies the basic problem with cross-band repeaters in most
              dual-band amateur radios. If the cross-band repeat radio is listening
              to an incoming signal from the remote repeater and retransmitting
              that incoming signal to your handheld, there's no way it can
              simultaneously listen for a signal coming from your handheld.

              If the remote repeater transmits a CTCSS tone, then you could set up
              your cross-band repeat radio to decode that tone. If the remote
              repeater controller is smart enough to only send the tone when it's
              actually repeating something (as opposed to transmitting an ID,
              courtesy tone, or dead air during it's hang time), then you might
              have a better chance of your cross-band repeat radio hearing your handheld.

              My personal opinion is that the usefulness of cross-band repeat as
              implemented on most amateur gear is over-rated. I have used "one way"
              repeat mode a few times to boost my handheld when my handheld could
              hear the remote repeater, but it couldn't hear my handheld, but
              two-way cross-band repeat on a busy repeater just doesn't seem to
              work all that well.

              Bob...
            • noskosteve
              ... Hi Bruce, I can t really consider this a problem ; a disadvantage perhaps, but not a problem with the radio. It is a feature that does what it does.
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 5, 2010
                --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, Bob Burns W9RXR <w9rxr_@...> wrote:
                >
                > At 06:11 PM 9/5/2010, Bruce C wrote:
                >
                > > The problem is that if I use the D700A to repeat both RX and TX, I
                > > can't successfully repeat the D7 transitions until the wide area
                > > repeater drops its carrier.
                >
                > Therein lies the basic problem with cross-band repeaters in most
                > dual-band amateur radios. If the cross-band repeat radio is listening
                > to an incoming signal from the remote repeater and retransmitting
                > that incoming signal to your handheld, there's no way it can
                > simultaneously listen for a signal coming from your handheld.
                >

                Hi Bruce,

                I can't really consider this a "problem"; a disadvantage perhaps, but not a problem with the radio. It is a feature that does what it does. It's not a design flaw in the radio. There is nothing you can do in the radio to eliminate this so-called problem.

                Generally, almost all amateur radios can't receive a signal while transmitting, yet this isn't considered a problem.
                Any repeater controller can be configured to 'fix' this. Older ones would need a few parts, perhaps as little as a couple of diodes.

                It works just fine on "simplex" (non second repeater).

                --
                73, Steve, K9DCI USN (Vet) MOT (Ret) Ham (Yet)
              • John Gianotti
                One fix that we have used in our area for events is to set our repeater to as close to zero hang time as it can. Then the repeater drops almost
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 6, 2010
                  One "fix" that we have used in our area for events is to set our repeater to
                  as close to zero hang time as it can. Then the repeater drops almost
                  instantaneously. Again, we only do this during special events, emergencies,
                  etc. You might try to convince your repeater group to come up with a macro
                  for events that would include no hang time.







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • noskosteve
                  ... Or to only transmit Tone when the squelch is open. Steve, K9DCI
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 6, 2010
                    --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, "John Gianotti" <w9wy@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > One "fix" that we have used in our area for events is to set our repeater to
                    > as close to zero hang time as it can. Then the repeater drops almost
                    > instantaneously. Again, we only do this during special events, emergencies,
                    > etc. You might try to convince your repeater group to come up with a macro
                    > for events that would include no hang time.


                    Or to only transmit Tone when the squelch is open.

                    Steve, K9DCI
                  • Bruce C
                    Lots of good information. Thanks all. I like the idea from a couple of posts of only transmitting a tone when the remote repeater is receiving a carrier. I
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 7, 2010
                      Lots of good information. Thanks all.

                      I like the idea from a couple of posts of only transmitting a tone when the remote repeater is receiving a carrier. I will bring it up at the next club meeting.

                      Is it possible to use two tones on the same carrier? One could represent only the detection of an incoming signal and the other represent the transmitter carrier. That way, people that are used to the current configuration won’t need to re-adjust. I would think that this would cause a problem in the beat frequencies being audible in the signal.

                      Thanks
                      Bruce
                      KG4HLZ
                    • noskosteve
                      Hi Bill, I certainly appreciate your desire to help others, I can t fault you any for that. I originally saved your fix, but after I saw the Kenwood fix, I
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 9, 2010
                        Hi Bill,

                        I certainly appreciate your desire to help others, I can't fault you any for that.
                        I originally saved your fix, but after I saw the Kenwood fix, I guess I half decided to *not* dig into it further, but when I decided to fix my D700, curiosity got the better of me. I studied the circuit and figured out what the design was. I plotted the frequency response of the original, yours and the Kenwood fix to see what response they provided.
                        It appeared to me as thought the original designer forgot where he was in the pre-emphasis/de-emphasis chain and assumed he was in a flat area when he needed to provide pre-emphasis all the way up to 3Kc.
                        Yours hit the correct gain at 1kc, but flattened there and didn't go all the way up to 3kc. Did you remove yours from the Files Area?

                        --
                        73, Steve, K9DCI USN (Vet) MOT (Ret) Ham (Yet)


                        --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, K8DNE <wh.reynolds@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On 9/5/2010 8:46 PM, noskosteve wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TMD700A%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > "Bruce C" <phillybruce@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I am looking at using the cross band repeater on my D700A to extend
                        > > the range of my D7A HT into a wide area repeater.
                        > >
                        > > Forgot. If you have an older D700 that doesn't have the fix, your
                        > > cross-band audio will sound very muffled. Kenwood used the wrong audio
                        > > shaping. There is a Kenwood bulletin with the correct fix. I plotted all
                        > > three and fixed mine. I'm prety sure it is in the Files Area of this
                        > > group. With all due respect to his work, Bill Reynold's fix (I think his
                        > > call is K8DNE) is not correct, but sort of close.
                        >
                        > Hey, Hey, Steve. At my age, Close Counts.....heeheeheeeee.
                        >
                        > Be safe, always, y'all.
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
                        >
                        > W H Reynolds, K8DNE
                        > Rowlett, TX RACES Radio Officer
                      • noskosteve
                        Bruce, It s technically possible, but would require a small bit of hardware mod to add the second tone. If done well, there would be no beat. However, since
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 9, 2010
                          Bruce,

                          It's technically possible, but would require a small bit of hardware mod to add the second tone. If done well, there would be no beat. However, since All radios I know of transmit the same tone when CT is enabled, you'd have to also have the repeater *receive* two tones. Again not impossible, but requires hardware work. In addition, having two tones on TX means the voice deviation would be another 750 Hz less - not severe, but there.

                          For those who have their receivers set to CT (tone squelch), the difference is that they will no longer hear the repeater ID, *when* it occurs without an input signal. At least that's the way it works on the local repeater. I do not know if any other the repeater controllers allow the Carrier/Tone setup *AND* enable Tone during ID. I don't know which controller the local repeater uses - only that configuring it gives the guys fits with all its complexity.

                          Being used to hearing the ID, I am uncomfortable using CT. Things are too quiet. Besides, if the repeater IDs right after someone de-keys, you don't hear it and tend to key-up and talk over it. Not a crime, just 'yucky' (;-)

                          --
                          73, Steve, K9DCI USN (Vet) MOT (Ret) Ham (Yet)



                          --- In TMD700A@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C" <phillybruce@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Lots of good information. Thanks all.
                          >
                          > I like the idea from a couple of posts of only transmitting a tone when the remote repeater is receiving a carrier. I will bring it up at the next club meeting.
                          >
                          > Is it possible to use two tones on the same carrier? One could represent only the detection of an incoming signal and the other represent the transmitter carrier. That way, people that are used to the current configuration won’t need to re-adjust. I would think that this would cause a problem in the beat frequencies being audible in the signal.
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          > Bruce
                          > KG4HLZ
                          >
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