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Re: [ Thor Fans ] Defenders egroup

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  • drobbins
    ... story. ... Good God. RT had already given us nine months---real time---of flashback filler courtesy of that talking eyeball . I tell ya , it is the single
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 30, 2001
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      Don did say:
      > Actually, Jim Shooter's ego got in the way of the completion of that
      story.
      > He pushed RT off the title before the arc was finished.

      Good God.
      RT had already given us nine months---real time---of
      flashback filler courtesy of that 'talking eyeball'.
      I tell ya', it is the single stupidest Thor storyline ever.
      So help me, Nick Fury.
      :)

      Future editor (at
      > that time) Ralph Macchio and Co. had to script off notes for 299 and 300
      > where the story culminated.

      So they abbreviated it, huh?
      Wonder if it's too late to send 'em 'thank you' cards?
      :)

      > Captain Mythology is still grumpy about it (Heh)

      Grumpy nothing.
      I've been flat-out ranting since the issues came out.
      And I'll confess; I was amazed that anyone liked it.
      Goes to show you----.

      , but it is a great
      > conclusion to a story that probably could have been told in a shorter
      span.

      "Probably"???
      Did you just write "probably" with a straight face???
      Man, you should be on the Comedy Network.

      :)))
      David
    • Neil Scott
      ... From: drobbins To: thorfans@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [ Thor Fans ] Defenders egroup ... story. ... Good God. RT had
      Message 2 of 30 , May 1, 2001
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: drobbins
        To: thorfans@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:58 AM
        Subject: Re: [ Thor Fans ] Defenders egroup


        Don did say:
        > Actually, Jim Shooter's ego got in the way of the completion of that
        story.
        > He pushed RT off the title before the arc was finished.

        Good God.
        RT had already given us nine months---real time---of
        flashback filler courtesy of that 'talking eyeball'.
        I tell ya', it is the single stupidest Thor storyline ever.
        So help me, Nick Fury.
        :)

        Future editor (at
        > that time) Ralph Macchio and Co. had to script off notes for 299 and 300
        > where the story culminated.

        So they abbreviated it, huh?
        Wonder if it's too late to send 'em 'thank you' cards?
        :)

        > Captain Mythology is still grumpy about it (Heh)

        Grumpy nothing.
        I've been flat-out ranting since the issues came out.
        And I'll confess; I was amazed that anyone liked it.
        Goes to show you----.



        I have to disagree in the strongest possible terms. This storyline was probably the best ever. An epic of Homeric proportions.
        Nez.


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      • Richard Green
        I also agreed that this run of Thor was one of the best ever. I never really thought too much about the talking eyeball, just that it was a plot device. After
        Message 3 of 30 , May 2, 2001
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          I also agreed that this run of Thor was one of the
          best ever. I never really thought too much about the
          talking eyeball, just that it was a plot device.
          After all what would an eyeball from a nearly
          omnipotent skyfather be capable of anyway once cut
          loose.
          --- Neil Scott <neil.scott@...> wrote:
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: drobbins
          > To: thorfans@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:58 AM
          > Subject: Re: [ Thor Fans ] Defenders egroup
          >
          >
          > Don did say:
          > > Actually, Jim Shooter's ego got in the way of
          > the completion of that
          > story.
          > > He pushed RT off the title before the arc was
          > finished.
          >
          > Good God.
          > RT had already given us nine months---real
          > time---of
          > flashback filler courtesy of that 'talking
          > eyeball'.
          > I tell ya', it is the single stupidest Thor
          > storyline ever.
          > So help me, Nick Fury.
          > :)
          >
          > Future editor (at
          > > that time) Ralph Macchio and Co. had to script
          > off notes for 299 and 300
          > > where the story culminated.
          >
          > So they abbreviated it, huh?
          > Wonder if it's too late to send 'em 'thank you'
          > cards?
          > :)
          >
          > > Captain Mythology is still grumpy about it (Heh)
          >
          > Grumpy nothing.
          > I've been flat-out ranting since the issues came
          > out.
          > And I'll confess; I was amazed that anyone liked
          > it.
          > Goes to show you----.
          >
          >
          >
          > I have to disagree in the strongest possible
          > terms. This storyline was probably the best ever.
          > An epic of Homeric proportions.
          > Nez.
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
          >
          >
          > Thor Fans 2001
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >


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        • drobbins
          ... Et tu? Sigh. I never really thought too much about the ... The mind boggles. ... David
          Message 4 of 30 , May 2, 2001
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            Richard wrote:
            > I also agreed that this run of Thor was one of the
            > best ever.

            Et tu?
            Sigh.

            I never really thought too much about the
            > talking eyeball, just that it was a plot device.
            > After all what would an eyeball from a nearly
            > omnipotent skyfather be capable of anyway once cut
            > loose.

            The mind boggles.

            :)
            David
          • Lundonj@aol.com
            In a message dated 05/04/2001 7:26:10 AM Mountain Daylight Time, ... I can see some of David s points about the storyline. It was pretty slow, but the
            Message 5 of 30 , May 4, 2001
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              In a message dated 05/04/2001 7:26:10 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
              richardmgreen@... writes:


              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I also agreed that this run of Thor was one of the
              > best ever. I never really thought too much about the
              > talking eyeball, just that it was a plot device.
              > After all what would an eyeball from a nearly
              > omnipotent skyfather be capable of anyway once cut
              >


              I can see some of David's points about the storyline. It was pretty slow, but
              the culmination of that arc was pretty powerful in #300. What's not to like
              about Thor jumping into a battle to avenge a fallen Odin when he has no
              chance to win? That sequence alone to me is amazing when Thor's shock turns
              to anger. Then there is the little thing about knocking over a
              Celestial....pretty cool. I know that was the inspiration for Tom DeFalco's
              great story "Alone Against the Celestials" about 89 issues later.

              Of course, David's normal even keel judgment about THOR stories is clouded a
              bit by Roy Thomas' shots at King Kirby via interviews over the years. I can
              understand that. Really! I don't like it when the egos of the creative
              folks I enjoy going after each other in any capacity. Destroys that fourth
              wall we need for focusing on the characters and stories and not the people
              behind the curtain!

              Anyway, I'll have to continue to respectfully disagree with David's position
              on this story, especially the mythology aspects. I don't think RT added or
              subtracted Norse elements to thumb his nose at Kirby, any more than Kirby
              thumbed his nose as Norse Mythos by adding the Warriors Three, but keeping
              Sif, Balder and Loki.

              Kirby added and subtracted elements he thought were cool, as did Roy Thomas,
              as did Walter Simonson. Outside of those three, most THOR writers seem to
              simply utilize those existing elements as a backdrop. Unfortunately, I
              haven't see Dan Jurgens take a new step with *any* mythological elements of
              THOR, he merely emulates bits already accomplished by those three creative
              forces.

              I think if we took polls on every Marvel related message board and every Thor
              related message board, the names that would be voted to the top of the list,
              by a substantive majority, would be Simonson, Lee/Kirby and Thomas. DeFalco
              would be close, but he had more detractors than Thomas (fair or not, because
              of things that happened under his EIC tenure).

              After that we have Wein, Conway, Jurgens (who did a decent job of rehashing
              Lee/Kirby stuff), and a host of people who wrote a handful of issues, like
              Ellis, Marz, Zelenetz, Loebs, etc. I don't think they lay a glove on the top
              three or four.

              All in my humble, humble, estimations, as usual.... ;-)

              -Don



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            • drobbins
              ... Thank you. :) But slow doesn t begin do it justice. Think turtlesque . Or perhaps petrified . , but ... like ... turns ... Yes, the culmination was
              Message 6 of 30 , May 5, 2001
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                Don said:
                > I can see some of David's points about the storyline. It was pretty slow

                Thank you. :)
                But 'slow' doesn't begin do it justice. Think 'turtlesque'.
                Or perhaps 'petrified'.

                , but
                > the culmination of that arc was pretty powerful in #300. What's not to
                like
                > about Thor jumping into a battle to avenge a fallen Odin when he has no
                > chance to win? That sequence alone to me is amazing when Thor's shock
                turns
                > to anger. Then there is the little thing about knocking over a
                > Celestial....pretty cool.

                Yes, the culmination was cool. But it took nine months to get there.
                Geez, my wife could have had a kid in that amount of time.

                > Of course, David's normal even keel judgment about THOR stories is
                clouded a
                > bit by Roy Thomas' shots at King Kirby via interviews over the years.

                That, and RT's writing---except on Conan, where he was terrific---has
                seldom elevated beyond the boundaries of
                'derivative'.

                > Anyway, I'll have to continue to respectfully disagree with David's
                position
                > on this story, especially the mythology aspects.

                I know I'm in the minority here. But, hey, I was the only who warned Leafy
                about that belly dancer.

                I don't think RT added or
                > subtracted Norse elements to thumb his nose at Kirby, any more than Kirby


                I don't recall saying that.
                I simply maintain it was mistake to wed the MU Thor
                to 'real' Norse myth.
                There's a difference, in my opinion, between what JK did and RT did. JK
                took Norse myth and tweaked it to suit the contemporary comic audience at
                the time.
                RT then tried to 'weld' JK's version onto the 'real' version, and therein,
                IMO, forever took the MU Thor from the realm of
                escapist fantasy fiction into the realm of pseudo-mythological reality.
                Intellectual pretension at its shoddiest.

                >> Kirby added and subtracted elements he thought were cool, as did Roy
                Thomas,
                > as did Walter Simonson.

                Point conceded.
                But Jack and Uncle Walt never pretended the MU Thor was anything more,
                mythologically speaking, than sheer and supreme entertainment.

                > haven't see Dan Jurgens take a new step with *any* mythological
                elements of
                > THOR, he merely emulates bits already accomplished by those three
                creative
                > forces.

                They don't call him 'Copy-Cat Jurgens' for nothing.
                Although, to be fair, he has given us---at least until recently---a
                magnificently exciting and stimulating run.

                > I think if we took polls on every Marvel related message board and every
                Thor
                > related message board, the names that would be voted to the top of the
                list,
                > by a substantive majority, would be Simonson, Lee/Kirby and Thomas.

                Really? RT would rank that high?

                Woe is me. Those poor, deluded, legion of fans.

                > After that we have Wein, Conway, Jurgens (who did a decent job of
                rehashing
                > Lee/Kirby stuff), and a host of people who wrote a handful of issues,
                like
                > Ellis, Marz, Zelenetz, Loebs, etc. I don't think they lay a glove on the
                top
                > three or four.

                I liked Zelenetz.
                Ellis bit bigtime, IME.
                And as for Marz---I keep hoping a flash of emerald green out of the sky
                will fry his sorry butt to a crisp.
                Courtesy of Hal.

                > All in my humble, humble, estimations, as usual.... ;-)

                Be they ever so humble, your comments are still
                insightful.

                David
              • crashpad@newwarriors.com
                ... pretty slow ... Yeah but you also said you didn t like Beta Ray Bill. I am not sure I trust your judgement David! LOL! :-)
                Message 7 of 30 , May 5, 2001
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                  > > I can see some of David's points about the storyline. It was
                  pretty slow
                  > Thank you. :)
                  > But 'slow' doesn't begin do it justice. Think 'turtlesque'.
                  > Or perhaps 'petrified'.

                  Yeah but you also said you didn't like Beta Ray Bill. I am not sure I
                  trust your judgement David! LOL! :-)
                • Lundonj@aol.com
                  In a message dated 05/05/2001 6:54:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time, ... Some writers give us a good journey (Lee/Kirby), I always thought Roy was one of those
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 5, 2001
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                    In a message dated 05/05/2001 6:54:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
                    drobbins@... writes:


                    > Thank you. :)
                    > But 'slow' doesn't begin do it justice. Think 'turtlesque'.
                    > Or perhaps 'petrified'.
                    >
                    >

                    Some writers give us a good journey (Lee/Kirby), I always thought Roy was one
                    of those destination guys. Long story arcs in comics don't bother me if they
                    end well, which I think that one did. Another long arc that I loved every
                    step of the way, was the Korvac Saga in AVENGERS by Jim Shooter, that was,
                    until a very cheap ending to a year of buildup. Korvac mows down everyone
                    but Moony and Thor, but there were zero ramifications or changes or lessons
                    learned in that five minute Star Trek ending. Conversely, Thomas' epic made
                    changes to Thor and the MU, most of which were interesting to me.

                    >
                    > Yes, the culmination was cool. But it took nine months to get there.
                    > Geez, my wife could have had a kid in that amount of time.
                    >

                    Both situations can be worth the wait! :-)

                    >
                    > That, and RT's writing---except on Conan, where he was terrific---has
                    > seldom elevated beyond the boundaries of
                    > 'derivative'.
                    >

                    I'm rereading his AVENGERS stuff right now and it is pretty good.
                    KREE/SKRULL is his best, but he did some decent stuff along the way. I liked
                    his early CONAN work, but it got tired to me (last couple years).

                    >
                    > I simply maintain it was mistake to wed the MU Thor
                    > to 'real' Norse myth.
                    > There's a difference, in my opinion, between what JK did and RT did. JK
                    > took Norse myth and tweaked it to suit the contemporary comic audience at
                    > the time.
                    > RT then tried to 'weld' JK's version onto the 'real' version, and therein,
                    > IMO, forever took the MU Thor from the realm of
                    > escapist fantasy fiction into the realm of pseudo-mythological reality.
                    > Intellectual pretension at its shoddiest.
                    >
                    >


                    Hmm. I know RT talked about it some, but I always took it as him going back
                    to the Norse well, to grab some more stuff, not reverse Lee/Kirby. Were Lee
                    and Kirby pretentious by using the characters and Norse elements they chose?
                    RT wasn't adding absolutes, he was adding depth, opening the door for more
                    Norse tales, not taking the fun out what Kirby established. If Thomas was
                    really attempting a transformation to a dogmatic Norse Thor, he would have
                    killed Blake (like Walt did), eliminated the Warriors Three and grow Thor a
                    beard (like Walt did) and change his hair red! Thomas did give us Red
                    Norvell, but he knocked him off by the end of the story! And he wrote a
                    wicked Loki, IMO.

                    >
                    > Point conceded.
                    > But Jack and Uncle Walt never pretended the MU Thor was anything more,
                    > mythologically speaking, than sheer and supreme entertainment.
                    >
                    >

                    Ehh, I think RT was going for sheer and supreme entertainment and NOT
                    pretense. I believe he had some great concepts that he didn't EXECUTE as
                    well as he could have or wanted to. In other words, I think *maybe* (key
                    word there is maybe) you mistake pretense for ability. Jack and Walt were
                    just better storytellers, but all three attempted similar leaps with
                    mythology. Roy's hero was Stan Lee, he just wasn't quite as sharp. To me,
                    Roy loved and respected Thor, his payoff wasn't as grand as the masters. ;-)
                    How's THAT for pretense? Heh.

                    >
                    > They don't call him 'Copy-Cat Jurgens' for nothing.
                    > Although, to be fair, he has given us---at least until recently---a
                    > magnificently exciting and stimulating run.
                    >
                    >

                    I think Dan deserves a shot to be considered among the top five THOR writers
                    of all-time, at least on my list, behind the Lee/Kirby, Simonson, Thomas and
                    DeFalco runs. Of course, that all depends on how this nasty looking REIGNING
                    thing goes down. ;-)


                    >
                    > Really? RT would rank that high?
                    >

                    In all honesty, from this board to others and usenet, you're the first highly
                    critical person of Thomas that I have met. Most concede he had a poor second
                    run, but his first shot at THOR is well regarded by every other "aged" fan I
                    have talked to (some not as glowing as I used to be). I also confess that
                    Roy has fallen a notch or two on my list, in part, because of some of your
                    observations. And then I reread the Simonson run a few times and Roy fell
                    further...! ;-)


                    >
                    > I liked Zelenetz.
                    > Ellis bit bigtime, IME.
                    > And as for Marz---I keep hoping a flash of emerald green out of the sky
                    > will fry his sorry butt to a crisp.
                    > Courtesy of Hal.
                    >
                    > > All in my humble, humble, estimations, as usual.... ;-)
                    >
                    > Be they ever so humble, your comments are still
                    > insightful.
                    >
                    >

                    Ditto. Ahhh, we can be sickeningly sweet! :-)

                    -Don



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • drobbins
                    ... one ... I guess we ll just have to agree to disagree. But please don t misconstrue; I ve ilked some of his stuff a lot. Long story arcs in comics don t
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 5, 2001
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                      Don said:
                      > Some writers give us a good journey (Lee/Kirby), I always thought Roy was
                      one
                      > of those destination guys.

                      I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
                      But please don't misconstrue; I've ilked some of his stuff a lot.

                      Long story arcs in comics don't bother me if they
                      > end well, which I think that one did.

                      Heck, me either. Arcs that take months to unfold can be vastly
                      entertaining as the suspense heightens.
                      The 'eyeball' problem, for me at least, was that it was nine months of
                      friggin' FLASHBACKS. There was no escalating
                      suspense. It was past history.

                      >
                      > I'm rereading his AVENGERS stuff right now and it is pretty good.

                      I give it a B in spots.

                      > KREE/SKRULL is his best, but he did some decent stuff along the way. I
                      liked
                      > his early CONAN work, but it got tired to me (last couple years).

                      His early Conan might well have been the pinnacle of his comic writing
                      career.


                      > Hmm. I know RT talked about it some, but I always took it as him going
                      back
                      > to the Norse well, to grab some more stuff, not reverse Lee/Kirby.

                      I don't think I've ever accused him of trying to reverse Kirby.
                      And it wasn't that he 'went back' to the Norse well; he fused
                      the MU Thor TO the Norse well.
                      Sigh.
                      I guess I lack the ability to express exactly why it miffed me.

                      Were Lee
                      > and Kirby pretentious by using the characters and Norse elements they
                      chose?

                      Not in the least.
                      But RT is an admitted myth nut, and at the time, he had expressed some
                      dislike of what Stan and Jake did.
                      The implication was that he could do it better.
                      Which, IMHO, he didn't.

                      > Ehh, I think RT was going for sheer and supreme entertainment and NOT
                      > pretense.

                      Sorry. But RT was too fond of promoting a social agenda. It's a subtext
                      in almost all his works. Shadings of words to fit his message. Perhaps
                      it's most glaring in the Inhumans
                      series.

                      I believe he had some great concepts that he didn't EXECUTE as
                      > well as he could have or wanted to. In other words, I think *maybe* (key

                      > word there is maybe) you mistake pretense for ability.

                      Hmm. I don't think I am. I admit Roy has considerable ability. Whether
                      he channeled it as wisely as I would have liked is another matter.
                      And that's just me.

                      > I think Dan deserves a shot to be considered among the top five THOR
                      writers
                      > of all-time, at least on my list, behind the Lee/Kirby, Simonson, Thomas
                      and
                      > DeFalco runs. Of course, that all depends on how this nasty looking
                      REIGNING
                      > thing goes down. ;-)

                      He's going downhill fast.
                      Sort of like DeFalco. I simply 'loved' Tom's Thor until he replaced him
                      with Eric for so bleepin' long.

                      > In all honesty, from this board to others and usenet, you're the first
                      highly
                      > critical person of Thomas that I have met.

                      Whoa.
                      I had no idea.
                      Maybe Leafy is rubbing off. :)


                      > > > All in my humble, humble, estimations, as usual.... ;-)
                      > >
                      > > Be they ever so humble, your comments are still
                      > > insightful.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > Ditto. Ahhh, we can be sickeningly sweet! :-)

                      A little levity is essential at this point,given the undesirably dark tone
                      the series has taken.

                      David
                    • drobbins
                      ... This from the guy who has Power Puff girl posters in his room? Geesh. ... David
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 5, 2001
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                        Leafy wrote:
                        >
                        > Yeah but you also said you didn't like Beta Ray Bill. I am not sure I
                        > trust your judgement David! LOL! :-)

                        This from the guy who has Power Puff girl posters in his room?

                        Geesh.

                        :)
                        David
                      • crashpad@newwarriors.com
                        ... sure I ... HEY! I will have you know that s actually a poster of Namorita... Yeesh. :-) Sure, her skin is blue, it looks kinda weird, and hangs right above
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 6, 2001
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                          > > Yeah but you also said you didn't like Beta Ray Bill. I am not
                          sure I
                          > > trust your judgement David! LOL! :-)
                          > This from the guy who has Power Puff girl posters in his room?
                          > Geesh.

                          HEY! I will have you know that's actually a poster of Namorita...
                          Yeesh. :-)

                          Sure, her skin is blue, it looks kinda weird, and hangs right above
                          my bed... but still... ;-)
                        • drobbins
                          ... Namorita? Ha! Your friends don t call you Smurf Boy for nothing. LOL David
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 8, 2001
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                            Leafy wrote:
                            > HEY! I will have you know that's actually a poster of Namorita...
                            > Yeesh. :-)
                            >
                            > Sure, her skin is blue, it looks kinda weird, and hangs right above
                            > my bed... but still... ;-)

                            Namorita? Ha!
                            Your friends don't call you 'Smurf Boy' for nothing.

                            LOL
                            David
                          • drobbins
                            ... What was the name of that girl Smurf, anyway? Smurfita? Smurfina? Smurfette? Really, Leafmeister. You should be ashamed of yourself. What will the
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 8, 2001
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                              Leafy wrote:
                              > HEY! I will have you know that's actually a poster of Namorita...
                              > Yeesh. :-)
                              >
                              > Sure, her skin is blue, it looks kinda weird, and hangs right above
                              > my bed... but still... ;-)

                              What 'was' the name of that girl Smurf, anyway? Smurfita?
                              Smurfina? Smurfette?

                              Really, Leafmeister. You should be ashamed of yourself.

                              What will the kids think?

                              :)
                              David
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