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Re: (teach) pronunciation clinic/ lab

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  • Russ Taylor
    Nelson Bank wrote: I do not think of the w as a dipthong You re right, it s called a semi-vowel or
    Message 1 of 25 , May 7, 2008
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      Nelson Bank <natlunla@...> wrote: >I do not think of the "w" as a dipthong

      You're right, it's called a 'semi-vowel' or 'glide'.
      I'm looking at the option of an 'u'(oo) 'I' (ih)
      diphthong (or any other diphthong beginning with the
      'u' sound) to be phonemically spelled as /wI/, as in
      /wIn/ or /uI/ (with a liaison over the 'u' and 'I'.
      Same for the word 'yes'. Should it be phonemically
      spelled /yes/, or /ies/ (with the liaison in the
      latter).
      My comment:
      The problem here is that there is only one diphthing beginning with /I/ in the IPA and that is the sound for 'ear' with /I/ followed by the schwa, the upside and back-to-front 'e'. There is no diphthiong beginning /u/, there is one beginning with a curly u followed by the schwa again, but this one is not too common in British English. Even dictionaries that talk about this diphthong in the pron. of 'pure' are misleading as it is more common in Britain to hear 'pjor' than 'pjooer'. Sorry I can't actually transcribe the IPA symbols here to make it any clearer but I hope you can follow anyway. There aren't any others Nelson, did you think there were?


      > I would write the /i/ and /u/ sound preceding
      >another >vowel in a diphthong, as /y/ and /u/, but
      not if the /i/ >or /u/ sound follow another vowel in a
      diphthong.


      My comment:
      can we have concrete word examples of what you just wrote above please.
      > Examples please!

      Sorry ..
      I would write 'win' phonemically as /wIn/; 'yes' as
      /yes/.
      My comment:
      In the IPA 'yes' is /jes/ the letter 'y' when pronounced, and it isn't always pronounced as you know ('know' itself being an example), is a 'jer' sound hence /j/

      I would write 'new' as /nIu/ (with a liaison over the
      'I' and 'u'); and 'say' as /sei/ (with liaison).
      My comment:
      'new' would be /nju:/; say /seI/ for me in the IPA.
      But lets' get back to the original idea that has been lost. nelson said there were 36 sounds in English. Could you list them so we can all see clearly what you are missing out. Could you explain as well how this so called simplified version is so complicated and how useful it actually is across the board for teachers and students alike? I remain deeply sceptical.

      Thanks


      Russ Taylor











      Russ


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    • Nelson Bank
      ear = /ir/ 36 sounds: Voiced: /b,d,g/ /s,sh,tch/ Unvoiced: /p,t,k/ /z,zh,j/ /m,n,l,r/ /f,h,th/ /v,ch,th/ /ng,nk/ /a,ae,e,I,i/ /aw,uh,eu,u,o/ /y,w/ Note:
      Message 2 of 25 , May 8, 2008
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        'ear' = /ir/
        36 sounds: Voiced: /b,d,g/ /s,sh,tch/
        Unvoiced: /p,t,k/ /z,zh,j/
        /m,n,l,r/ /f,h,th/ /v,ch,th/ /ng,nk/
        /a,ae,e,I,i/ /aw,uh,eu,u,o/ /y,w/
        Note: All the above have a single IPA-based symbol.
        The internet does not allow me to write them as such.
        I'll prepare a website with the correct symbols.
        These are, however, the only sounds in English. Note
        that vowel sounds are pure, and that diphthongs are
        written with two of the vowel symbols with a liaison
        sign on top. I added the /nk/ sound because of its
        common use.
        The 'ch' is a hard 'h'; the second 'th' is voiced.
        Nelson Bank
      • Russ Taylor
        Nelson Bank wrote: ear = /ir/ 36 sounds: Voiced: /b,d,g/ /s,sh,tch/ Unvoiced: /p,t,k/ /z,zh,j/ /m,n,l,r/ /f,h,th/ /v,ch,th/ /ng,nk/
        Message 3 of 25 , May 8, 2008
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          Nelson Bank <natlunla@...> wrote:

          'ear' = /ir/
          36 sounds: Voiced: /b,d,g/ /s,sh,tch/
          Unvoiced: /p,t,k/ /z,zh,j/
          /m,n,l,r/ /f,h,th/ /v,ch,th/ /ng,nk/
          /a,ae,e,I,i/ /aw,uh,eu,u,o/ /y,w/
          Note: All the above have a single IPA-based symbol.
          The internet does not allow me to write them as such.
          I'll prepare a website with the correct symbols.
          These are, however, the only sounds in English. Note
          that vowel sounds are pure, and that diphthongs are
          written with two of the vowel symbols with a liaison
          sign on top. I added the /nk/ sound because of its
          common use.
          The 'ch' is a hard 'h'; the second 'th' is voiced.
          -------------------------------------------


          So you think /th/ voiced and unvoiced are the same sound? They are not.They are similar but there is a difference in sound surely? That's why they have 2 separate symbols in the IPA. When talking of the vowel sounds you must be clear that you are talking about American English as British English has more diphthong sounds as has already been mentioned by Halima and me. Which symbols are used for the diphthongs in 'day', 'eye', 'boy', 'now', 'hair' and 'sewer' please tell me? Is your /e/ a KK /e/ for the diphthong in 'day' or the short 'e' in 'bed' as I think you have one of those sounds missing and I think it's the diphthong but it is early for me and just might be being obtuse. Which symbols are used for 'put' and then 'putt'?
          Final question, how is your system an improvement on the IPA?




          Nelson Bank also wrote:

          'ear' = /ir/
          36 sounds: Voiced: /b,d,g/ /s,sh,tch/
          Unvoiced: /p,t,k/ /z,zh,j/
          /m,n,l,r/ /f,h,th/ /v,ch,th/ /ng,nk/
          /a,ae,e,I,i/ /aw,uh,eu,u,o/ /y,w/
          ---------------------------------------


          My comment:
          Nelson, if /uh/ is your schwa sound, why is ear /ir/, surely it should be /iuh/
          shouldn't it? Do you have markimgs above /r/ to indictae its different pron.
          whether it starts a word or comes at the end?

          Russ Taylor
        • Nelson Bank
          Russ has a lot of questions about the 36-symbol phonemic alphabet. This alphabet is a simplification of the IPA. Though it uses mostly IPA symbols, the sounds
          Message 4 of 25 , May 9, 2008
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            Russ has a lot of questions about the 36-symbol
            phonemic alphabet.
            This alphabet is a simplification of the IPA. Though
            it uses mostly IPA symbols, the sounds that it
            represents are sometimes only close to the sounds in
            the IPA. It's a phonemic alphabet for English only.
            'day'=/dei/(with liaison over 'e' and 'i' to indicate
            diphthongization), 'eye'=/ai/(w/liaison symbol),
            'boy'=/boi/(liaison), 'now'/nau/(liaison), 'hair'/her/
            or /heir/ depending on how you pronounce it (w/
            liaison over 'ei') 'sewer'=/su[eu]r/ or /suw[eu]r/
            (the u[eu] is a diphthong).
            /e/ is a pure vowel; /ei/ is a diphthong.
            'put'=/p[eu]t/, 'putt'=/p[schwa]t/
            Nelson Bank
          • Jada Rufo
            ... keeps their minds sharp especially when they go off beat . I m due to give a pronounciation series this week. I m very interested in whatever ideas this
            Message 5 of 25 , May 11, 2008
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              --- In TEFLChina@yahoogroups.com, "Ria Smit" <tryria@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > -------------
              > What I do I use rhymes and sentences with rhythm and get the students
              > to tap out the rhythm as they speak. Use tapes if you don't have the
              > confidence to read it in the correct rhythm, or download from the NET.
              >
              >I've done that with toung twisters. It grabs their attention and
              keeps their minds sharp especially when they go "off beat".

              I'm due to give a pronounciation series this week. I'm very interested
              in whatever ideas this group can come up with as well. My favorite is
              helping students with the "th" sound. I got this from Dave's ESL
              Cafe. Have students hold a lollipop in front of their mouth. If they
              can taste their sucker while pronounciating the "th" sound, then they
              are doing it correctly. One of my students liked this idea so much
              that he asked if I could give him the rest of the pops I had and he
              began teaching the "th" lesson to other classmates!

              Jada
            • Russ Taylor
              Sorry it s been a while replying but there were some other things demanding my attention. /p[eu]t/ doesn t sound like the way I d say put. Isn t that [eu] an
              Message 6 of 25 , May 14, 2008
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                Sorry it's been a while replying but there were some other things demanding my attention. /p[eu]t/ doesn't sound like the way I'd say put. Isn't that [eu] an oh sound? And putt with a schwa? Not in the IPA it isn't... I remained unconvinced and a bit confused.

                Nelson, I didn't see a schwa included in your list of 36 sounds. Is the schwa
                your 'uh' sound?

                Russ Taylor


                ======================================================


                Nelson Bank <natlunla@...> wrote: Russ has a lot of questions about the 36-symbol
                phonemic alphabet.

                'put'=/p[eu]t/, 'putt'=/p[schwa]t/
                Nelson Bank
              • Nelson Bank
                ... Yes, the uh sound is the schwa, stressed or unstressed. It s in buck , again , and hiccup . The /[eu]/, written as a big caret or upside-down V
                Message 7 of 25 , May 14, 2008
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                  >Is the schwa your 'uh' sound?

                  Yes, the 'uh' sound is the schwa, stressed or
                  unstressed. It's in 'buck', 'again', and 'hiccup'.
                  The /[eu]/, written as a big caret or upside-down V
                  (different from IPA), is the sound in book and foot.
                  'eu' is the sound from French. The upside-down V is
                  sometimes used in dictionaries as a type of /a/ sound,
                  I've found often inaccurately in some Chinese/English
                  dictionaries.
                  Nelson Bank
                • Russ Taylor
                  Mod s Note: with this message, this thread it now closed. It has continued for quite some time along similar lines of division and it not purposeful to
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 15, 2008
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                    Mod's Note: with this message, this thread it now closed. It has continued for quite some time along similar lines of division
                    and it not purposeful to extend the discussion.
                    -----------------------------------------------------

                    Nelson Bank <natlunla@...> wrote: >Is the schwa your 'uh' sound?

                    Yes, the 'uh' sound is the schwa, stressed or
                    unstressed. It's in 'buck', 'again', and 'hiccup'.
                    The /[eu]/, written as a big caret or upside-down V
                    (different from IPA), is the sound in book and foot.
                    'eu' is the sound from French. The upside-down V is
                    sometimes used in dictionaries as a type of /a/ sound,
                    I've found often inaccurately in some Chinese/English
                    dictionaries.

                    My comment:


                    Oh dear Nelson. The schwa is indeed in 'again' but it is NOT in 'buck' or 'hiccup', at least not in the standard pron. that I teach and for which I use the IPA as a teaching tool for my students. In both of those 2 words it is in fact the upside down v that you talk about, wrongly, for 'book' and 'foot'. The correct IPA symbol for those words is the wiggly u. I wonder if you could tell me why you are using a symbol for a sound from French when teaching English pron? Do your students have Inspector Clouseau accents? (joking).


                    I think I will not post anymore on this topic as there is nothing more for me to add as Nelson as shown me nothing at all to make me think that switching from using the IPA to help guide my students towards good standard pron. using ALL the sounds of standard pron. is a good idea. The 36 sounds that Nelson suggests is far too reductive, have been poorly explained and will not serve my students who will have their English pron. assessed by native English examiners in the Trinity GESE. I actually think that 'simplifying' an internationally accepted phonemic system is going a bit too far. This is especially true to me when I have used the IPA, ONLY as a teaching tool by the way, for students of differing ages and abilities in different cities in China and heard their marked progress when their competence and understanding of the phonemic alphabet has been fostered by explanation and modelling.As has been said before by me and others, if students don't get the IPA it is
                    probably down to poor teaching not because they can't get it. To think otherwise is patronising and unfairly demeans the students.
                    When I first arrived to teach in China I tried different methods of teaching and correcting pron. a method of spelling out the sounds that Nelson seems to favour, but I found it lead to greater confusion. Perhaps that was because of my poor teaching. Once I found that the students had some familiarity with the IPA I used that in class and have never regretted it.

                    Finally Nelson, I suggest you use a standard monolingual English-English dictionary, Cambridge or Oxford are best I would say but there are others I think, where you know what symbols are being used as there is a pron. key to illustrate this basic tool. Chinese-English dictionaries don't necessarily use the standard phonemic IPA symbols but can often employ Chinese phonetics instead that undoubtedly cause problems. The fault lies with the publishers however, not the IPA itself. If you use a Chinese-English dictionary check the pron. guide first and if there are discrepancies from the IPA, then don't recommend it to your students.

                    Good luck with your system. It doesn't work for me but if it works for you and, more importantly, your students then good luck to all of you.


                    Russ Taylor
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