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Re: [Synoptic-L] Alternating Primitivity (#1-3 bis)

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  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: Synoptic Cc: GPG, WSW In Response To: Ron Price On: Alternating [Lk/Mt] Primitivity #1-2 bis From: Bruce Just a few comments on Ron s rejoinders so far.
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 21, 2008
      To: Synoptic
      Cc: GPG, WSW
      In Response To: Ron Price
      On: Alternating [Lk/Mt] Primitivity #1-2 bis
      From: Bruce

      Just a few comments on Ron's rejoinders so far.

      CASE 1 (Lk 6:39, the blind leading the blind). I had pointed out several
      passages where Luke, but not Matthew, shows Jesus relatively friendly to
      Pharisees or vice versa: notice the helpful warning of Lk 13:32, a unique
      Lukan passage.

      Ron: "There are two factors here. Firstly because elsewhere (in 11:39ff.)
      Luke retains detailed criticisms of some Jewish groups. This nullifies your
      argument about Luke's supposed lack of interest in Jewish factional
      disputes."

      Bruce: We should distinguish original material from inertial material, that
      retained from Mk or another predecessor. The latter may be there simply
      because it is there in the source. The former is more likely to show where
      the author personally is at. There is no nullification.

      Ron: "Secondly because the change from a question in Luke to an assertion in
      Matthew would have made Matthew's criticism of the Pharisees more barbed,
      whereas the change from an assertion in Matthew to a question in Luke would
      seem quite pointless."

      Bruce: I doubt that a rhetorical shift can be pushed so far. If it can, that
      would need to be demonstrated on more than one passage. Is there a general
      tendency for statements in Mt or Lk to be counterparted by questions in the
      other? I am open to statistics. Meanwhile, I am prepared to allow Luke to
      vary Matthew's rhetoric, if only to fend off boredom.

      [I had said that in the series under consideration, the "blind leading the
      blind" passage "does not seem to continue the previous Lukan text in any
      obvious way"]

      Ron: "Quite. Your observation matches well the hypothesis that Luke was here
      taking sayings from an early source and not keeping them in their original
      order."

      Bruce: Except that I go on to argue that the "blind" passage *does* link to
      the following Lukan text, which then becomes relevant to interpretation.
      Does this in turn mean that Lk is "taking sayings from an early source and
      KEEPING them in their original order?" I doubt the force of both arguments,
      or either taken separately. All it comes to is that Luke has a structure,
      marked by series of units linked together, each series having its own
      beginning and end. The same can be said of all the Gospels. I can see no
      principle of priority or indebtedness anywhere in here.

      [The rest of the discussion concerned what Fleddermann said or meant, and I
      am here content to deal with what Ron said or meant]

      CASE 2 (Lk 10:4, cf Mk 6:8-11 || Mt 10:9-14 || Lk 9:3-5). I had argued for
      bringing in the other member of the doublet, as relevant to interpretation.
      The issue is the word "greet."

      Ron: Bruce is not alone in wondering what this phrase meant. Most likely it
      refers to the urgency of the mission in view of the imminent coming of the
      kingdom/Son of Man. But I have an additional explanation. The editor of the
      logia wanted the word "greet"/"greeting" in the instructions in order to
      create a link between the corresponding sayings B4 and D4 ("... and to be
      greeted with respect in the marketplaces").

      Bruce: I accept the Manson interpretation of haste. I continue to think that
      Luke is here recycling, at a slightly different part of his text, the neat
      word "greet" which he found in his Matthean source. As to Ron's own version
      of Q, to which he here refers, I note that B4 and D4 stand notably apart in
      it, and I cannot at this moment see what would be gained by Luke's
      attempting to establish a link between them.

      Ron [on my thought that Luke is slightly decoding Matthew's "greet the
      house" by giving the words of blessing on the house"]: On the contrary,
      Luke's Semitic greeting "Peace ..." correctly reflects the
      Palestinian background of this early saying. Matthew's "Greet it", i.e. the
      house or household, saves a few pen strokes but makes the next verse more
      difficult to understand. My view is that Matthew's version is too obscure to
      have been original.

      Bruce: I don't think that economy of pen strokes applies. Matthew's version
      would have been obscure to non-Jews, as Davies and Allison might be thought
      to imply, and Luke is making it easier for them. We frequently find that
      later scribes, perhaps especially the Byzantine ones, are consistently
      concerned to produce a text which is clear on its face, and does not require
      explanations or a critical apparatus. I think the same wish is entirely
      credible for Luke. Matthew was probably not obscure to his original audience
      (or if it was, what could have been his motive in making it so, given a
      perfectly transparent Lukan original), but Luke's audience was different,
      and he is keeping its needs in mind.

      [We then took on the fact that Luke is not here giving instructions for the
      Twelve, as use of the Matthean passage in question might imply, but for the
      Seventy, a notion wholly unique in Luke, and without parallel, as an event,
      in Matthew or anywhere else].

      Ron: I did not deny that the framework of Luke's second sending was
      conceived by Luke. All I was doing here was reiterating the majority view
      that the original version of the mission instructions deriving from an early
      source which predated the synoptic gospels, did not include the *number* of
      missionaries. Of course
      the number of missionaries in Lk 10 was introduced by Luke.

      Bruce: Why are we discussing "majority views?" I am trying to get at Ron's
      view. Let me attempt to elicit it by a question. Luke has previously written
      his account of the Sending of the Twelve (Lk 9), based essentially on Mark.
      He is now coming up to write his account of the Sending of the Seventy (Lk
      10). Ron has said that the number seventy [-two, let's not quibble] is an
      "editorial addition: by Luke. Editorial addition to what?

      Ron: [The specification of the higher number] "was part of Luke's editorial
      'wraparound' to his second version of the mission instructions, a version
      which was dependent on an early sayings source. His first version in Lk 9
      had been dependent on Mark. . . .

      Bruce: But why have a second version at all?

      Ron: "It is perfectly possible to conceive that Luke added his original
      thought to a kernel which he had not written himself but found in an early
      sayings source."

      Bruce: Multiplication of sources ad hoc. I reject it. We have a perfectly
      clear "kernel" in Mark, the Sending of the Twelve. If Luke had additional
      information about that event, I would expect him to use it to enhance his
      version of the Markan prototype, not to start a second Sending with it. If
      his supposed non-Markan source had specified Seventy [or so] rather than
      Twelve, then I can understanding his making it a separate incident, but Ron
      seems to rule out that option by making "Seventy" exclusively Luke's idea.
      OK, then suppose Luke had an unknown sayings source, and that the sayings
      source also included a deeds source, and that that source contained a
      variant account of the Sending of the Twelve. Luke might have imagined that
      the Twelve were sent out twice, and located the second Sending at the
      beginning of his special Travel Narrative. But there is nothing in the
      resulting Second Sending save Mark (cannibalized from Luke's own previous
      version), Matthew (newly seen, in my opinion; concurrently seen according to
      others), and his own symbolic imagination.

      I do agree, though, with the feeling that Luke is here derivative. The
      question is, derivative from what? I continue to think, for reasons
      previously adduced, that the three sources named above (Mark, Matthew, and
      Luke himself) will cover the necessary ground.

      CASE 3 [Lk 10:5, the austerity issue; not separately discussed in Ron's
      recent response]

      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
    • Ron Price
      ... Bruce, I agree with the distinction. But it doesn t apply in this case because my example of Luke retaining criticisms of Jewish groups in Lk 11:39ff., and
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 22, 2008
        Bruce Brooks wrote:

        > CASE 1 (Lk 6:39, the blind leading the blind).
        > ....... We should distinguish original material from inertial material, that
        > retained from Mk or another predecessor. The latter may be there simply
        > because it is there in the source. The former is more likely to show where
        > the author personally is at. There is no nullification.

        Bruce,

        I agree with the distinction. But it doesn't apply in this case because my
        example of Luke retaining criticisms of Jewish groups in Lk 11:39ff., and
        your claim that Luke would have dropped the criticism of Pharisees because
        he lacked interest in them, both involve material belonging to the category
        you call "inert", i.e. material from a predecessor. Therefore the
        nullification stands.

        > ....... I am open to statistics. Meanwhile, I am prepared to allow Luke to
        > vary Matthew's rhetoric, if only to fend off boredom.

        Anyone can argue for a remote possibility. Probable? No.

        > ..... Except that I go on to argue that the "blind" passage *does* link to
        > the following Lukan text, which then becomes relevant to interpretation.
        > Does this in turn mean that Lk is "taking sayings from an early source and
        > KEEPING them in their original order?"

        As it happens, yes. According to my reconstruction of the logia, 'Blind
        guide' (A9, Lk 6:39) originally had a different saying in front of it (A8,
        Lk 6:27-30,32-36), but was followed by the same saying (A10, Lk 6:40).

        > ..... As to Ron's own version
        > of Q, to which he here refers, I note that B4 and D4 stand notably apart in
        > it, and I cannot at this moment see what would be gained by Luke's
        > attempting to establish a link between them.

        It wasn't Luke who created a link between them, but the author of the logia
        who ensured a link between each saying in section B and its corresponding
        saying in section D. Likewise with sections A and C. This "ensuring" was
        primarily by putting the sayings in a suitable order, but occasionally as in
        this case it may have involved a minor amendment to the saying to create the
        link.

        > ....... Luke has previously written
        > his account of the Sending of the Twelve (Lk 9), based essentially on Mark.
        > He is now coming up to write his account of the Sending of the Seventy (Lk
        > 10). Ron has said that the number seventy [-two, let's not quibble] is an
        > "editorial addition: by Luke. Editorial addition to what?

        To his adaptation of the logia 'Mission instructions'.

        > Bruce: But why have a second version at all?

        For two reasons. Firstly because he had another source (the logia)
        containing a slightly different set of mission instructions. Secondly to
        symbolize the mission to the Gentiles.

        > Multiplication of sources ad hoc. I reject it.

        So do I.

        > We have a perfectly
        > clear "kernel" in Mark, the Sending of the Twelve. If Luke had additional
        > information about that event, I would expect him to use it to enhance his
        > version of the Markan prototype, not to start a second Sending with it.

        As noted above, Luke had two reasons to duplicate the story. To elaborate on
        the first: as a good scholar he probably realized that the Aramaic logia
        version was older than the Greek Markan version, but with no established
        source-critical techniques he may have been reluctant to attempt a
        combination of these important sayings from his two best sources.

        Ron Price

        Derbyshire, UK

        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
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