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Papias

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  • Larry J. Swain
    I ve doing some reading in and about Papias of late and have a question. J. B. Lightfoot and Eduard Schweizer (not sure on the latter) have both explained the
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 3, 2007
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      I've doing some reading in and about Papias of late and have a
      question. J. B. Lightfoot and Eduard Schweizer (not sure on the
      latter) have both explained the Elder's comments about Mark not being
      "in order" etc as to be taken in comparison to the Elder's own gospel,
      or at least his oral teaching of the material that would become the
      4th gospel. This seems to me a very likely explanation since it seems
      that the Elder had something to do with the 4th Gospel and it is well
      known that the chronology of John differs from the Synoptics,
      sometimes significantly.

      HOwever, I haven't seen this idea referred to or discussed much in
      assessments of Papias' comments regarding Mark and the Synoptics. Is
      it because it isn't a widely known idea, or has it for some reason
      that I've not discovered yet been shown to be unlikely?

      As I write I also think of Irenaeus, and I should go look this up but
      I'm going off memory, who excoriates a set of Christians in part for
      having only the gospel of Mark and so therefore according to him have
      gone into error. But part of his comments have to do with the issue
      of "time", how old Jesus was, how long his ministry was, etc (does he
      use similar vocabulary to Papias' Elder, such as "taxis"? I don't
      have immediate access to a text of Irenaeus.), and how this effects
      order and the measure of time. This would seem to possibly be a
      continuation of the same discussion as Papias reports of the Elder,
      there are problems in the Marcan, specifically (and perhaps the
      Synoptics in general), ordering of Jesus' life.

      Thanks in advance!


      BTW, as long as I have your attention, about 10 years Charles Hill
      published an article in JTS on Eusebius' source of information
      regarding the composition of Luke and John as being Papias. I found
      the article convincing and to have explanatory power re: Eusebius and
      his use and disparagement of Papias. I wonder if any others here have
      read it and what they thought.

      Larry Swain
      University of Illinois at Chicago
    • John Lupia
      Those looking for recent studies on Papias should be aware that Edward Henry Hall: Papias And His Contemporaries; was originally published in 1899 and freshly
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 4, 2007
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        Those looking for recent studies on Papias should be
        aware that Edward Henry Hall: Papias And His
        Contemporaries; was originally published in 1899 and
        freshly reprinted this year in 2007.


        Some recent bibliography on Papias:


        Bauckham, Richard, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses : the
        Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony. (Grand Rapids, Mich.
        : William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 2006)see also
        Bauckham, Richard, The Eyewitnesses and the Gospel
        Tradition. JSHJ 1 (2003) : 28-60.


        Foster, Paul, The Writings of the Apostolic Fathers
        (T&T Clark, 2007)


        Gundry, R H, The Apostolically Johannine pre-Papian
        Tradition Concerning the Gospels of Mark and Matthew,
        in Gundry R H, The Old is Better: New Testament Essays
        in Support of Traditional Interpretations, (Tübingen:
        Mohr Siebeck, 2005) : 49-73.


        Holmes, Michael W., The Apostolic Fathers in English
        (Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Academic,2006)


        Norelli, Enrico, ed., Papias of Hierapolis,
        Esposizione degli oracoli del signore. I
        frammenti.(Letture Christiane del Primo Millennio,
        36.)
        See also Bockmuehl, M., The Journal of Ecclesiastical
        History, 57, no. 1 (2006): 99-100


        Norelli, Enrico, et alia, Papias de Hiérapolis a-t-il
        utilisé un recueil "canonique" des quatre évangiles?,
        dans : G. Aragione, E. Junod et E. Norelli (dir.), Le
        canon du Nouveau Testament. Regards nouveaux sur
        l'histoire de sa formation, Le monde de la Bible 54,
        Genève 2005, p. 35-85.


        Pouderon et Duval, La mémoire des origines
        chrétiennes: Papias et Hégésippe chez Eusèbe:
        L’historiographie de l’Eglise des premiers siècles,
        éd. B. Pouderon; Y.-M. Duval (Théologie historique
        114), Paris, Beauchesne, 2001, p. 1-22.


        Sim, David C., "The Gospel of Matthew, John the Elder
        and the Papias Tradition: A response to R H Gundry,"
        HTS 63(1) 2007


        Tasmuth, R., "Authority, Authorship, and Apostolicity
        as a Part of the Johannine Question: The Role of
        Papias in the Search for the Authoritative Author of
        the Gospel of John," Concordia journal. 33, no. 1,
        (2007): 26-42


        John N. Lupia, III
        Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA; Beirut, Lebanon
        Fax: (732) 349-3910
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
        God Bless Everyone



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