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Re: [Synoptic-L] Why not Mt used Lk?

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  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: Synoptic Cc: WSW In Response To: Chuck Jones On: Mt Lk From: Bruce CHUCK: If Mt used Lk, a significant structural issue would dissolve--the fact that
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
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      To: Synoptic
      Cc: WSW
      In Response To: Chuck Jones
      On: Mt > Lk
      From: Bruce

      CHUCK: If Mt used Lk, a significant structural issue would dissolve--the
      fact that much of the double tradition in Mt is organized into five speeches
      while in Lk it is scattered through the book.

      BRUCE: Certainly two of the great overreaching empirical facts about Mt and
      Lk are that (a) in the details they share with Mk they largely have the same
      order as Mk, but (b) in details which they share only with each other, they
      typically have different order. This latter, plus the claim that (c) there
      is no constant directionality in those Mt/Lk shared units, is what gives us
      the Q hypothesis.

      I think the sovereign principle in directionality questions, articulated by
      Metzger and attributed by him to Griesbach, is that "that version is
      original which can be most readily seen as giving rise to the other." Most
      people, I believe, will find it easier to imagine that Mt has thematically
      grouped certain sayings from a less organized prior version, than that Lk
      has merely scattered them, with no other end in view. If instead Lk is
      actually following the order of a prior source, and merely keeping that
      order (whatever its own logic or lack of it), whereas Mt is changing that
      prior order into a more thematically clustered and literarily impressive
      form, then the logic of both Mt and Lk appears cogent. This too gives us Q,
      along with the additional assumption that the order of Q was that of Lk
      (otherwise the problem of order in Lk remains unsolved).

      So, yes, these are big time issues.

      CHUCK: Two individual passage relationships that make much more sense if Mt
      used Lk are the Lord's Prayer and the Beatitudes.

      BRUCE: Because, in the case of the Lord's Prayer, the Lukan version is
      shorter, right? There is more to be said on this highly visible passage. I
      again recommend the treatment by Austin Farrer, in his essay reprinted in
      the Bellinzoni volume. In terms of my old Synopsis, the Matthean version
      [6:9-15], with those parts not present in Lk [11:2-4] bracketed, and
      omitting some parts attested by less than all MS authorities, and ignoring
      small differences, would be:

      "[Our] Father, [who art in Heaven], hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come,
      [Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven]. Give us this [/each] day
      our daily bread, and forgive us our debts [/sins], as we also have forgiven
      our debtors, and lead us not into temptation [but deliver us from evil].

      The Lukan version is superficially more apocalyptic, and thus arguably more
      primitive. The Matthean version might defensibly be called watered-down
      apocalyptic, and thus derivative: the Lord's Prayer not of a universe about
      to vanish, but of a steady-state universe. And thus later, after the hope of
      a soon end of the world had been in some measure given up, or at least put
      on long hold.

      Those wanting to sample a huge mass of opinion on this and on at least some
      of the Beatitudes will find useful two of the Documenta Q volumes mentioned
      earlier: (1) Q 11:2b-4 (The Lord's Prayer), Stanley D Anderson (ed), Peeters
      1996, and (2) Q 6:20-21 (The Beatitudes for the Poor, Hungry, and Mourning),
      Thomas Hieke (ed), Peeters 2001. No matter which side of the argument you
      like, and in these volumes it is dissected line by line, you will have very
      great NT names on your side. What I call a win/win situation.

      CHUCK: Of course, many passage relationships can be trotted out in which it
      makes most sense that Lk used Mt.

      BRUCE: I like neutral terminology better. The fact is that many more Mt/Lk
      doublets suggest a Mt > Lk relationship than the opposite. This casts the
      Lord's Prayer and a few other examples in an especially strong light, as
      exceptions in that almost general flow. Of course, if the general flow could
      be shown to be the total flow, if the LP and a few other high-profile items
      could be analyzed as Mt > Lk, then we would have Mk > Mt >> Lk as our
      indicated Synoptic Theory, and Q would simply vanish. Except of course for
      the unsold warehouse stock, and that is not my concern.

      CHUCK: I think one of the strongest arguments for the existence of an
      independent source (Q) is the fact that sometimes Mt's version of a passage
      seems more "primitive" than Lk's and vice versa. One would expect evident
      dependence to flow in a single direction if there was no independent source
      for the double tradition.

      BRUCE: Fully agreed. This was the view of Harnack among many others. As far
      as I understand it, this conclusion is a foundation stone of the present
      majority opinion. It was precisely a unidirectionality of flow, in the
      direction Mt > Lk, that Goulder sought to demonstrate in detail. I find that
      Goulder mixes in too many other ideas along with this task, and I observe
      that his view has been faulted largely through objections to those other
      ideas, without fully confronting his directionality analysis. That might
      suggest a revising of his directionality arguments, as such, straight.

      But we have here among us the Heir Presumptive to the Farrer-Goulder line of
      argument, and perhaps we ought at this point to pause for a word from him.

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      http://www.umass.edu/wsp
    • E Bruce Brooks
      To: Synoptic Cc: WSW In Response To: Chuck Jones (PPS) On: Lk Mt Passages (The Refused Invitation) From: Bruce How much general interest there may be in this
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
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        To: Synoptic
        Cc: WSW
        In Response To: Chuck Jones (PPS)
        On: Lk > Mt Passages (The Refused Invitation)
        From: Bruce

        How much general interest there may be in this exchange I cannot tell, but I
        may offer one further addendum to my previous suggestions about passages in
        Mt which have been thought to be secondary to their parallels in Lk.

        McNeile (1915) xxvii, in confidently dating Matthew to after the Roman
        destruction of the Temple in the year 70, relied on Mt 22:1-10 as a post-70
        rewriting of Lk 14:16-24, or its source. Benjamin Bacon, Studies in Matthew
        (1930) 64, explains why McNeile drew this inference. He places the two
        passages side by side (a thing not practicable in E-mail), and italicizes
        the parts in the Mt version that depart from the Lk version. It should be
        said by way of context that this segment is immediately preceded in Mt by a
        parable which Mt, Mk, and Lk all contain: the Parable of the Wicked Tenants.
        The burden of that parable is that the owner of the vineyard, when he comes,
        will kill the wicket tenants and give the vineyard to others entirely. This
        already looks like a symbol of the rejection of the Jewish nation, but in
        all versions it is explicitly explained as having been told "against the
        Pharisees," that is, it means a power displacement within Judaism, not a
        rejection of Judaism in favor of another nation entirely.

        But in the Matthean version, there follows (after the quote from Psa 118,
        "the stone which the builders rejected"), this comment, as spoken by Jesus,
        which is without parallel in Mk or Lk: "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of
        God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits
        of it" [Mt 21:43]. It would seem to me that this extra and uniquely Matthean
        note DOES envision the turning away of God from Israel as such.

        Now we move on to the next Matthean item. Mark here drops out, and we have
        the parable of the Refused Invitation (some call it the Marriage Feast, but
        that only describes the Matthean version). The Lukan version is at a non-cor
        responding place in Lk. I put in CAPS the material in Mt which differs from
        that in Lk, and otherwise copy Bacon p65f:

        AND JESUS ANSWERED AND SPAKE TO THEM AGAIN IN PARABLES, saying, THE KINGDOM
        OF HEAVEN IS LIKENED UNTO a certain KING WHO made a MARRIAGE supper FOR HIS
        SON. And he sent forth his servants to invite the gueses to the WEDDING, and
        they would not come. AGAIN HE SENT OTHER SERVANTS, SAYING, TELL THE GUESTS,
        LO, I HAVE PREPARED MY BANQUET, MY OXEN AND MY FATLINGS ARE SLAUGHTERED AND
        ALL THINGS ARE READY: COME TO THE WEDDING. But they paid no heed and went
        away, one to his field, another to his merchandise - AND THE REST LAID HOLD
        ON HIS SERVANTS AND MALTREATED AND KILLED THEM. BUT THE KING WAS ANGRY AND
        SENT HIS ARMIES AND DESTROYED THOSE MURDERERS AND BURNED THEIR CITY. - Then
        he saith to his servants, THE WEDDING IS READY, BUT THE INVITED GUESTS WERE
        NOT WORTHY. Go forth they to the partings of the roads and invite all that
        ye find to the WEDDING. So those servants went forth into the highways, and
        gathered all that they found, BOTH BAD AND GOOD, and the WEDDING was
        supplied with guests.

        The "both bad and good" part is to prepare for the unique passage Mt 22:11f,
        where the wedding guest without a wedding garment is bound and "cast into
        the outer darkness; there man will weep and gnash their teeth." One feels
        that the pose of allegory has been here abandoned, and that we have
        dissolved into the Final Judgement itself.

        In terms of basic concinnity, it seems to me obvious that the points of
        difference with the Lk version make a hash of the Matthean version. One
        minute we have a ruler angry with his neighbors, and the next minute that
        ruler has become a distance enemy, who sends his armies to burn their city,
        the teller of the tale evidently forgetting that by the previous narrative
        it is his own city too. The absentee owner of the preceding vineyard has
        evidently impressed itself here on aMk, to the exclusion of aMk's sense of
        where his story has been going. Not to mention that the servants of the king
        are no sooner killed by the unwilling guests than he has a second supply to
        do his further bidding; a gaucherie which was not committed by any version
        of the preceding parable (where successive servants are sent, and finally
        the landlord's own son). The narrative scale is not consistent, and the
        rationality of the dramatis personae also leaves something to be desired.
        Then the Lk version, to which none of these objections apply, would seem to
        be nearer to the original, with the Mt version some sort of variation on it.

        McNeile's point, expanded by Bacon, is that the burning of the city seems
        decisively to refer to the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in the Jewish
        Revolt of 70. I am prepared to concede that point.

        COMMENT

        It would seem to follow, though Bacon did not pause to note this, that if
        the Matthean changes were what made this 70 reference unmistakable, then
        they were NOT unmistakable in the Lk version (or its original), which might
        defensibly be dated to BEFORE the year 70. But there are pretty clear
        indications of the end of Jerusalem in the parallel Lk material, and
        especially in what precedes that material (in Q, what *directly* precedes
        that material) in Lk.

        P45, Alexandrinus, and a few other manuscripts lack Mt 22:1-14, but due to
        damage rather than omission. There is then no warrant for supposing that Mt
        22:1-14 was added after the closing of the text of Mt, and for scenarios, we
        seem to be limited to events occurring during the formation periods of the
        respective Gospels.

        Sequence. In Lk, the Refused Invitation parable does not follow the Wicked
        Tenants parable, but instead comes after a "parable" in which instructions
        are given for guests at formal banquets: not to take the highest place, lest
        you be displaced by a later arriving and more honorable guest. Also, when
        you give a feast, invite the poor, and you will be blessed since they cannot
        repay you. This is not a parable in the usual sense of "parable." Then
        follows the Refused Invitation piece, as though in answer to a remark by a
        guest at a banquet where Jesus was also present (this is spelled out in Lk
        14:1). Are these preceding comments also present in Q? Not at any rate in
        the Critical Edition of Q, where the numbers are given, but then crossed
        out. The preceding thing in that version of Q is Lk 13:34-35, including the
        remark to Jerusalem, "Look, your house is forsaken!" To that warning, as
        noted above, Lk 14:16f as the next Q piece would be thematically relevant,
        IF we take it also in the sense of the rejection of Israel. This is
        countenanced, albeit less dramatically than in Mt, by the concluding line in
        Lk (not paralleled in Mt): "For I tell you, None of those men who were
        invited shall taste my banquet. The rejection of Israel is not necessarily
        the same as the destruction of Jerusalem, though it is possible to imagine
        the difference being bridged by sufficiently skillful argument.

        The Q scenario apparently is that a previous text contained the simple
        (Lukan) form of this story, and that separately (a) Matthew elaborated it
        into a variant of the Wicked Tenants story, and placed it by association
        after that story, and (b) Luke retained it more or less as it was, keeping
        it after the warning to Jerusalem but interpolating a context which makes a
        story about banquet guests apposite. This is a little awkward, though it
        might perhaps be improved by further reconsideration about what one thinks
        was originally contained in Q. The trouble, from a Q point of view, is that
        the more we do this, the more Q and Lk tend to converge.

        There are thus at least modest difficulties in any direction, and I leave it
        at that stage, noting that it is easier to imagine the Matthean version
        having been altered from a Lukan original than vice versa.

        Anyone have a comment?

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      • Ron Price
        ... Bruce, This focus on the transition seems to me to be unduly narrow, and therefore flawed. It fails to ask about the likelihood or otherwise that the
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
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          Bruce Brooks wrote:

          > I think the sovereign principle in directionality questions, articulated by
          > Metzger and attributed by him to Griesbach, is that "that version is
          > original which can be most readily seen as giving rise to the other."

          Bruce,

          This focus on the transition seems to me to be unduly narrow, and therefore
          flawed. It fails to ask about the likelihood or otherwise that the earlier
          text could have been composed as postulated (see below).

          > Most
          > people, I believe, will find it easier to imagine that Mt has thematically
          > grouped certain sayings from a less organized prior version, than that Lk
          > has merely scattered them, with no other end in view. If instead Lk is
          > actually following the order of a prior source, and merely keeping that
          > order (whatever its own logic or lack of it), whereas Mt is changing that
          > prior order into a more thematically clustered and literarily impressive
          > form, then the logic of both Mt and Lk appears cogent.

          This is what I find nonsensical. If it is difficult to understand the lack
          of order of sayings in Luke, how much more difficult to understand the lack
          of order in those same sayings in the much smaller early sayings source.
          Would anyone have created such a mess? Luke, on the other hand, does have a
          structure, and there are indications for at least some sayings why they were
          moved. For instance the saying about asking (11:9-13) is deliberately placed
          after two passages concerning prayer, and the salt saying (14:34-35) might
          have been deliberately placed next to a brief scene which mentions eating
          (15:1-2). Similarly Luke placed the saying about the greatest (22:24-27,
          with its Lukan addition "But I am among you as one who serves") within the
          passion story in order to present Jesus as the Servant who suffers (c.f. Is
          53). Note that Luke's narrative context provides lots of opportunities for
          non-sequential selection of suitable sayings, and contrast this with a
          (nearly?) pure sayings source where there is little or no such context. The
          idea that Luke retained almost all of the sayings source in its original
          order is, to my mind, incredible.

          > This too gives us Q,
          > along with the additional assumption that the order of Q was that of Lk
          > (otherwise the problem of order in Lk remains unsolved).

          There you go again (though I realize you're following what many others have
          written). How on earth is a perceived problematic order solved by blaming it
          on an earlier source? Is it a case of 'Out of sight, out of mind'?

          Ron Price

          Derbyshire, UK

          Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
        • E Bruce Brooks
          To: Synoptic Cc: Al Cohen; WSW In Response To: Ron Price On: Methodology Points in re Q From: Bruce I had said, BRUCE: I think the sovereign principle in
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
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            To: Synoptic
            Cc: Al Cohen; WSW
            In Response To: Ron Price
            On: Methodology Points in re Q
            From: Bruce

            I had said,

            BRUCE: I think the sovereign principle in directionality questions,
            articulated by Metzger and attributed by him (perhaps a bit too generously)
            to Griesbach, is that "that version is original which can be most readily
            seen as giving rise to the other."

            RON: This focus on the transition seems to me to be unduly narrow, and
            therefore flawed.

            BRUCE: For fine points of variant wording in manuscripts, as well as for
            large points of relationship between whole texts, I think it is the best we
            have. Narrower precepts, such as Griesbach's own "lectio brevior" dictum,
            simply don't cover the ground which philology actually encounters, as
            Sanders was at pains to show, at both the word and the text level, in his
            Tendency of the Synoptic Tradition (1969). And as Housman had long before
            remarked, in terms more caustic than I would care to use in the present
            environment, but those who feel themselves up to that challenge may consult
            him direct (http://www.umass.edu/wsp > Philology > Housman).

            RON: . . . It fails to ask about the likelihood or otherwise that the
            earlier text could have been composed as postulated (see below).

            BRUCE: Not at all. It opens judgement to all the evidence, not merely to the
            wordcount of some fraction of the evidence. As for "below," see below.

            I had next said:

            BRUCE: Most people, I believe, will find it easier to imagine that Mt has
            thematically grouped certain sayings from a less organized prior version,
            than that Lk has merely scattered them, with no other end in view. If
            instead Lk is actually following the order of a prior source, and merely
            keeping that order (whatever its own logic or lack of it), whereas Mt is
            changing that prior order into a more thematically clustered and literarily
            impressive form, then the logic of both Mt and Lk appears cogent.

            RON: This is what I find nonsensical. If it is difficult to understand the
            lack of order of sayings in Luke, how much more difficult to understand the
            lack of order in those same sayings in the much smaller early sayings
            source. Would anyone have created such a mess?

            BRUCE: That is very easy to understand, and I think that it is part of the
            appeal of Q, allegedly a "sayings Gospel," that it offers such an
            understanding. It is a question of genre. Luke, if we take note of its
            manifest form, and/or the intention expressed in the ostensible
            self-introduction, is trying to put together a coherent narrative account; a
            history. If his material appears unordered by that criterion, that is, if it
            doesn't make narrative sense, then there is a problem between the seeming
            intention of Luke and the text that Luke has actually produced. On the other
            hand, Q is supposed to be a "sayings Gospel," for which one model is Thomas.
            Thomas tells no very visible story. It simply gives you wisdom vignettes one
            after the other, though sometimes with keyword or other associational links.
            It has never been perceived as a fault in Thomas that it does NOT tell a
            story, because storytelling is not the formal intent of that kind of text.
            No reasonable and genre-conscious person could possibly object.

            [I have mentioned before that this "sayings collection" genre, though rare
            or even conjectural in the Mediterranean world, is very common in the
            contemporary and slightly earlier classical Chinese world, and that
            experience gained with these EXTANT early Chinese wisdom collection might be
            useful to the NT field. I mention it again, but only in parentheses. Does
            this mean that all seminarians should learn classical Chinese? No. But they
            might manage to lunch occasionally with someone who has a foot on that shore
            of our common lake].

            The "Sermon on the Mount" literature is there in its reverential depth and
            enthusiastic breadth to attest that the Matthean arrangement of the "Q"
            wisdom material is supremely convincing and thus successful. The same
            material is more dispersed in Luke, and most readers seem to have found Luke
            inferior to Matthew in this respect. Thus arises a difficulty for the theory
            that Luke used Matthew: Why (people perpetually ask) would Luke break up the
            Sermon on the Mount, of all things, and that in a way which achieves a
            notably less successful result? A terrible situation, surely. But if Luke is
            NOT using Matthew, but is INSTEAD respecting the order of a wisdom or
            Sayings source for this material, just as he respects the order of the
            narrative material he has taken from Matthew, then (1) any defects in order
            of Luke's wisdom material, as compared to Matthew, are to be attributed to
            the "wisdom" order, which will be at most an associational order, in Luke's
            source, and Luke is not to be faulted for his faithfulness to his source.
            His seeming defect as an author accordingly vanishes. This is a conclusion
            which is likely to be applauded by fans of Luke, and everybody is in some
            degree a fan of Luke.

            RON: Luke, on the other hand, does have a structure, and there are
            indications for at least some sayings why they were
            moved. For instance the saying about asking (11:9-13) is deliberately placed
            after two passages concerning prayer, and the salt saying (14:34-35) might
            have been deliberately placed next to a brief scene which mentions eating
            (15:1-2). Similarly Luke placed the saying about the greatest (22:24-27,
            with its Lukan addition "But I am among you as one who serves") within the
            passion story in order to present Jesus as the Servant who suffers (c.f. Is
            53).

            BRUCE: This is precisely what I mean by "associational" ordering, as
            distinct from the historical ordering which Luke otherwise purports to
            exhibit. Luke as it stands, especially as read by someone who knows Matthew,
            seems to hover between two genres: narrative (things in historical order),
            and wisdom (things in associational clusters). If instead the author of Luke
            is merely alternating between two sources of different genre, and doing his
            best to intercalate the one into the other, then all is well. No?

            [I should add that Ron's suggestions of how Luke might rationally be derived
            from Matthew, without the hypothesis of a separate source Q, may well be
            helpful contributions toward the World Without Q which some at least on this
            list have in mind as the right answer to the question. I don't evaluate
            those possibilities here, but I am aware of their potential].

            RON: Note that Luke's narrative context provides lots of opportunities for
            non-sequential selection of suitable sayings, and contrast this with a
            (nearly?) pure sayings source where there is little or no such context. The
            idea that Luke retained almost all of the sayings source in its original
            order is, to my mind, incredible.

            BRUCE: Well, go argue that one with the Q establishment. I do so myself, and
            I would take up some details on this list, except that the last time I
            offered to do so, no particular interest seemed to exist. Far be it from me
            to bore a large concentration of learned persons, least of all at this
            season of the year.

            Noting, in any case, the attractions of this model for framers or acceptors
            of Q, I had added:

            BRUCE: This too gives us Q, along with the additional assumption that the
            order of Q was that of Lk (otherwise the problem of order in Lk remains
            unsolved).

            RON: There you go again (though I realize you're following what many others
            have written).

            BRUCE: I am indeed; I am in part trying to inhabit the mind of Q acceptors,
            and see what is going on in there. I think that the whole enterprise rests
            on feet of something or other, but that does not mean that there is nothing
            that an approach de novo cannot use, or usefully provide for in other ways.

            RON: How on earth is a perceived problematic order solved by blaming it on
            an earlier source? Is it a case of 'Out of sight, out of mind'?

            BRUCE: Tsk. Already answered, but once again: There is no question of
            "blame," merely a question of trying to find what makes sense of the data in
            front of our noses. If the wisdom material in Lk is even in part
            associational, then to that extent it constitutes a departure from Lk's
            otherwise historical texture. That is one alternative, and it is not very
            flattering to Luke. But If the wisdom material in Lk is associational, not
            because Lk has changed his structural principle in midstream (and back
            again, over and over, like some bipolar idiot), but merely because he has
            changed his source, with a view to completeness, telling the WHOLE story of
            Jesus as best he can with the sources available to him, then our view of Lk
            as a historian is altered for the better, and our view of Lk's sanity
            (faulted already by Streeter and by others since) becomes more benign. I
            suspect that people like this, and I also suspect that their liking it is
            one of the ongoing attractions of the Q idea.

            I like it myself, but I am not prepared to stop there. The editors of the
            Critical Edition of Q have not only given a table of contents of Q as they
            see it, but also a list of Q in Matthean order. In those lists, or in the
            somewhat simpler but largely equivalent table given by Raymond Brown in his
            Introduction, one can see that some sayings or other units which are
            consecutive in Matthew have been, so to speak, broken up and rearranged in
            Q. To their credit, the Documenta Q people consider scholarly opinions, not
            only about the wording of the units they discuss, but also about their
            sequential order. If we take the Matthean and not the Lukan sequence of the
            Q material as more likely to be original (just a thought experiment), then
            we find a whole different picture in front of us; one which, like the other,
            makes sense of the material, but DIFFERENT sense of DIFFERENT PARTS of the
            material. Probably, somewhere in the gigantic Q literature, someone has
            investigated the possible implications and consequences of this. Can anyone
            here present point to such an investigation, or summarize its findings?

            E Bruce Brooks
            Warring States Project
            University of Massachusetts at Amherst
            http://www.umass.edu/wsp
          • Ron Price
            ... Bruce, I don t see how you come to this conclusion. The focus is solely on the process of giving rise to , i.e. on how the author of the later text might
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 3, 2006
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              Bruce Brooks wrote:

              > I think the sovereign principle in directionality questions,
              > articulated by Metzger and attributed by him (perhaps a bit too generously)
              > to Griesbach, is that "that version is original which can be most readily
              > seen as giving rise to the other."
              > ...
              > [This principle] opens judgement to all the evidence

              Bruce,

              I don't see how you come to this conclusion. The focus is solely on the
              process of "giving rise to", i.e. on how the author of the later text might
              have edited the earlier text. There is no mention of assessing the
              plausibility of the behaviour of the author in producing the earlier text.
              This is why I say the principle is too narrow.

              >> If it is difficult to understand the
              >> lack of order of sayings in Luke, how much more difficult to understand the
              >> lack of order in those same sayings in the much smaller early sayings
              >> source. Would anyone have created such a mess?

              > It is a question of genre.
              > ..... Q is supposed to be a "sayings Gospel," for which one model is Thomas.
              > Thomas tells no very visible story.

              The clue is in your words "supposed to be". Q is a mess by comparison with
              GTh because (a) it contains some narratives (b) the distribution of these
              narratives is peculiarly skewed (c) it contains some words attributed to
              John the Baptist. It is indeed a question of genre, and if one looks at the
              contents of Q in an investigative rather than a defensive manner, it will be
              seen that Q doesn't fit any known genre, despite Kloppenborg's strenuous
              attempts to prove otherwise. Q is an oddity. No person in their right mind
              could have produced such an inconsistent mess. When will the NT world wake
              up to this?

              > ..... But if Luke is
              > NOT using Matthew, but is INSTEAD respecting the order of a wisdom or
              > Sayings source for this material, just as he respects the order of the
              > narrative material he has taken from Matthew,

              Presumably you mean Mark.
              You're not making sufficient allowance for the difference between narrative
              and sayings. The order of the former was often constrained by the logic of
              the overall story. Matthew and Luke were both free to make many changes to
              the order of the sayings without thereby showing any disrespect.

              > ..... any defects in order of Luke's wisdom material, as compared to
              > Matthew, are to be attributed to the "wisdom" order,

              Or it could be that the subtlety of Luke's editorial endeavours is beyond
              the comprehension of modern commentators. Why are they so sure of
              themselves? Luke's skill has been vastly underestimated.

              > which will be at most an associational order,

              If you mean 'the wisdom material will only be ordered by word associations
              between adjacent sayings', then I don't agree. In my reconstruction of the
              sayings source there are 46 other links (including seven in a recent
              discovery of one-to-one links between the blessings and the woes), plus a
              clear division into four sections, two of which are each clearly divided
              into two equal halves.

              > ..... Luke is not to be faulted for his faithfulness to his source.

              This is a widely held scholarly assumption. However it is untrue. For
              instance, scholars arguably only reject Lk 10:5b and 10:23 because they make
              this very assumption.

              > ..... everybody is in some degree a fan of Luke.

              Yes. But why? It's in part because he rejected sayings such as Mt 6:7; 7:6;
              10:5b and 10:23, and in two other cases replaced "Gentiles" by a euphemism
              to avoid a slur. Basically Luke is attractive to Gentiles because he tends
              to remove the evidence of authentic pro-Jewish attitudes (which we should
              naturally expect from the original disciples), to play down apocalyptic
              fervour (unpalatable to most Christians from Luke's time onwards), and to
              introduce nice little stories like the Good Samaritan which praises a
              non-Jew.

              > Luke as it stands, especially as read by someone who knows Matthew,
              > seems to hover between two genres: narrative (things in historical order),
              > and wisdom (things in associational clusters). If instead the author of Luke
              > is merely alternating between two sources of different genre, and doing his
              > best to intercalate the one into the other, then all is well. No?

              He was indeed doing his best at intercalation. Unfortunately NT scholarship
              on the whole seriously underestimates the freedom which Luke exercised in
              reordering his sayings source and in creating new parables.

              > ..... I am in part trying to inhabit the mind of Q acceptors,
              > and see what is going on in there. I think that the whole enterprise rests
              > on feet of something or other, but that does not mean that there is nothing
              > that an approach de novo cannot use, or usefully provide for in other ways.

              This is exactly what I've done (my new approach salvaging the majority of
              Q), and what Farrer supporters have conspicuously avoided doing.

              > If the wisdom material in Lk is even in part
              > associational, then to that extent it constitutes a departure from Lk's
              > otherwise historical texture. That is one alternative, and it is not very
              > flattering to Luke. But If the wisdom material in Lk is associational, not
              > because Lk has changed his structural principle in midstream (and back
              > again, over and over, like some bipolar idiot),

              Again I think you underestimate Luke's flexibility. He was extremely skilled
              in several aspects of literature. He could even imitate the style of others,
              whether Hebraic, Septuagintal or formal. There's no reason why he shouldn't
              have made use of association, and I referred to least one example (the theme
              of prayer in Lk 11:2-4; 5-8; 9-13). In any case Luke's "historical texture"
              was somewhat stretched in the artificial 'journey to Jerusalem'.

              > If we take the Matthean and not the Lukan sequence of the
              > Q material as more likely to be original (just a thought experiment), then
              > we find a whole different picture in front of us; one which, like the other,
              > makes sense of the material, but DIFFERENT sense of DIFFERENT PARTS of the
              > material. Probably, somewhere in the gigantic Q literature, someone has
              > investigated the possible implications and consequences of this. Can anyone
              > here present point to such an investigation, or summarize its findings?

              My Web site contains the detailed results of an investigation which adopts
              this as well as other revolutionary approaches. The resulting proposed order
              of the original sayings in relation to their positions in the synoptics can
              best be seen on the following page:

              http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_sQsQ.html

              Ron Price

              Derbyshire, UK

              Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
            • Ron Price
              ... Chuck, That s a fair question. Firstly compared to the nearest documents: the synoptic gospels, all of which have a definite structure and a story line
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 4, 2006
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                Chuck Jones wrote:

                > Q is a mess compared to what?

                Chuck,

                That's a fair question.

                Firstly compared to the nearest documents: the synoptic gospels, all of
                which have a definite structure and a story line which develops logically
                from a dramatically sensible start to a dramatically sensible end.

                Secondly compared to what are perhaps the theologically closest collections
                of sayings/poetry: the psalms, the proverbs and GTh. All three of these
                appear to exhibit a remarkable uniformity of style. I would expect any
                sayings collection produced by the earliest followers of Jesus to have had
                at least this degree of stylistic uniformity.

                > It seems to me that a natural trajectory of gathering and retaining memories
                > from the career of Jesus would be something like (1) the community told,
                > retold and created stories about the sayings and deeds of Jesus, (2) they
                > began to write the stories down, (3) the stories were gathered into
                > collections, (4) at some point those collections were arranged thematically,
                > and then (4), evidently with Mark, they were arranged into a career/life-of
                > narrative framework.
                >
                > If Mt and Lk drew from a document produced at stage (3), is it fair to call
                > that document a mess?

                I'm not happy with your trajectory, for it seems to me to demand a leisurely
                timescale which would not fit into the time available. Don't forget that
                Paul had met Peter, and Mark was probably written less than ten years after
                Paul's death. Another problem is that the death and destruction associated
                with the Jewish rebellion would have cut across any chain of oral tradition.
                Finally another barrier becomes apparent when we take together the fact that
                Paul showed relatively little interest in the sayings of Jesus, and the fact
                that Pauline Christianity rapidly became the norm. It seems to me that the
                only way a large number of Jesus' sayings could have been reliably
                transmitted to posterity is if the twelve committed them to writing before
                ca. 60 CE whilst Jerusalem was at peace (which indeed is just what I am
                proposing). Furthermore I would expect them to put in the requisite
                expertise and effort to make a good job of it right from the start, once
                they had decided that Jesus' return was not quite so imminent as to make the
                job pointless.

                Ron Price

                Derbyshire, UK

                Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
              • Chuck Jones
                Ron, My reconstruction implies no particular elapsed time. In fact a compressed time frame would make it more likely that Mt and Lk would have a stage 3
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 5, 2006
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                  Ron,

                  My reconstruction implies no particular elapsed time. In fact a compressed time frame would make it more likely that Mt and Lk would have a stage 3 document (collected sayings that had not been placed into any thematic order) at their disposal.

                  Chuck

                  Rev. Chuck Jones
                  Atlanta, Georgia

                  Chuck Jones wrote:

                  > It seems to me that a natural trajectory of gathering and retaining memories
                  > from the career of Jesus would be something like (1) the community told,
                  > retold and created stories about the sayings and deeds of Jesus, (2) they
                  > began to write the stories down, (3) the stories were gathered into
                  > collections, (4) at some point those collections were arranged thematically,
                  > and then (4), evidently with Mark, they were arranged into a career/life-of
                  > narrative framework.
                  >
                  > If Mt and Lk drew from a document produced at stage (3), is it fair to call
                  > that document a mess?

                  Bruce replied:
                  I'm not happy with your trajectory, for it seems to me to demand a leisurely
                  timescale which would not fit into the time available. Don't forget that
                  Paul had met Peter, and Mark was probably written less than ten years after
                  Paul's death. Another problem is that the death and destruction associated
                  with the Jewish rebellion would have cut across any chain of oral tradition.
                  Finally another barrier becomes apparent when we take together the fact that
                  Paul showed relatively little interest in the sayings of Jesus, and the fact
                  that Pauline Christianity rapidly became the norm. It seems to me that the
                  only way a large number of Jesus' sayings could have been reliably
                  transmitted to posterity is if the twelve committed them to writing before
                  ca. 60 CE whilst Jerusalem was at peace (which indeed is just what I am
                  proposing). Furthermore I would expect them to put in the requisite
                  expertise and effort to make a good job of it right from the start, once
                  they had decided that Jesus' return was not quite so imminent as to make the
                  job pointless.



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