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Re: [Synoptic-L] Why not Mt used Lk?

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  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: Synoptic Cc: WSW In Response To: Chuck Jones On: Matthew Used Luke From: Bruce I have the impression (though it is a narrowly based impression, and not
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 30, 2006
      To: Synoptic
      Cc: WSW
      In Response To: Chuck Jones
      On: Matthew Used Luke
      From: Bruce

      I have the impression (though it is a narrowly based impression, and not
      meant to preclude a more informed comment from the learned of the list) that
      the Lk > Mt possibility has been swamped in Synoptic studies generally by
      the Q matter. That is, the directionalities usually considered as between
      Matthew and Luke are chiefly the ones involved with the so-called Double
      Tradition material, which was the original definition of Q (Q has long since
      been promoted to Gospel status, but that is another issue). Just a few
      things occur to me to mention in response:

      1. Wilke, whose 1838 publication effectively launched Markan Priority for
      our world, believed, as I understand it (I have not seen his book) that
      Matthew was secondary to Luke; Wilke did not offer to suggest where Luke
      himself got the non-Markan material from. (It was Weisse, in that same year,
      who published the variant theory of Markan Priority Plus Q, which quickly
      established itself in the esteem of the faithful, in which esteem it is, at
      last report, still firmly ensconced).

      2. Ed Sanders, in Appendix II to his published dissertation The Tendencies
      of the Synoptic Tradition (Cambridge 1969), listed some "Suggested
      Exceptions to the Priority of Mark," namely passages in which "either
      Matthew and/or Luke is thought by one or more of these scholars to have a
      more original form of a certain passage than does Mark." This list was
      reprinted in the later Bellinzoni volume. According to Ed, it has never been
      taken up in detail, either before or after Bellinzoni. With Ed's approval, I
      began to consider these items one by one on the old Synoptic-L list, but
      desisted due to manifest lack of general interest. If we mentally eliminate
      Q from these problems, then what remains can be construed as cruxes of Mt/Lk
      directionality, with references to scholars who preferred what amounts to a
      Lk > Mt directionality.

      3. In the same vein: Those with unlimited time and money can see arguments
      pro and con Matthean vs Lukan primality in the Documenta Q series. Most
      amusing are the cases where the current Q editors have gone against the
      entire weight of previous scholarly opinion in the form of a given story
      which they have accepted into the sacred if insubstantial precincts of Q. In
      any case, for close arguments about which version of a "double tradition"
      saying is older, these more or less blue volumes (the publishers can't seem
      to keep to one idea of what constitutes the ideal "blue") are a rich
      resource. Same final comment as preceding.

      4. Those accepting Lukan Priority will tend to find Matthew secondary to
      Luke, though in Stephen Carlson's diagram, Mark intervenes in that
      relationship. I have never investigated the Lindsey approach, which strikes
      me as simply wrongheaded, and thus don't know how a sample passage would
      look if argued in this way. The Jerusalem Perspective people's Lindsey web
      site is at http://www.jerusalemperspective.com

      5. Of course the opposite position, that Matthew is prior to Luke without
      the intermediation of Q, is supported by Griesbach persons (see eg McNicol,
      Luke's Use of Matthew), as well as, in extenso, by Michael Goulder (Luke: A
      New Paradigm). The former, at least to me, is philologically disappointing.
      But has only to reverse the decisions of the latter, and there you are.
      Whether the reversals prove to be tenable is the question. From the cases I
      have so far considered, I would tend to suspect not, but other opinions are
      doubtless possible. It would be interesting to see a case argued, on this
      list or elsewhere. One case which, unsurprisingly, has attracted early and
      ongoing attention is the Lord's Prayer, dealt with already by Farrer in a
      way which I for one find convincing. (I also find the Markan Lord's Prayer
      an interpolation, and specifically a late intrusion from Matthew, a position
      which has some support in the literature, including F C Grant, but that gets
      us into other territory).

      I would personally be glad to see a Lk > Mt directionality argument, for any
      passage of choice. Consider this response one vote in favor of such a
      contribution.

      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      http://www.umass.edu/wsp
    • E Bruce Brooks
      To: Synoptic In Response To: Chuck Jones On: Matthew Used Luke (PS) From: Bruce I guess I should read my own stuff better. As a pendant, then, to my previous
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
        To: Synoptic
        In Response To: Chuck Jones
        On: Matthew Used Luke (PS)
        From: Bruce

        I guess I should read my own stuff better. As a pendant, then, to my
        previous suggestions about places where a Luke > Matthew directionality
        might be explored in the literature, I will add to the Wilke 1838 theory two
        other theories, from the end of the page (at http://www.umass.edu/wsp >
        Synoptica > Synoptic Theories) where I list the 25 possible conditions of
        relationship among 3 literary texts. The three in question read as follows:

        Theory #23. B > C >> A [Wilke Hypothesis 1838: Mark first; Matthew drew from
        both]
        Theory #24. C > A >> B [Büsching Hypothesis 1766: Luke first; Mark conflated
        both]
        Theory #25. C > B >> A [Lockton Hypothesis 1922: Luke first; Matthew drew
        from both]

        I have never investigated any of these, and don't have more precise
        references, but online library catalogues can probably provide them. Best
        wishes,

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      • gentile_dave@emc.com
        Bruce wrote: I would personally be glad to see a Lk Mt directionality argument, for any passage of choice. Consider this response one vote in favor of such a
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
          Bruce wrote: I would personally be glad to see a Lk > Mt directionality
          argument, for any
          passage of choice. Consider this response one vote in favor of such a
          contribution.



          Dave: This reminds me of one more small note I should add, regarding
          the results of the study.

          All it can say is that on balance the directionality can not be Lk =>
          Mt.

          That does not preclude the idea that on occasion our received text of
          Matthew may be dependent on our received text of Luke.





          Dave Gentile

          Sr. Systems Engineer/Statistician

          B.S./M.S. Physics

          M.S. Finance (ABD Management Science)

          Riverside, IL





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chuck Jones
          Bruce, Thanks very much for the references below. Does anyone know of any online availability of these? Chuck Rev. Chuck Jones Atlanta, Georgia E Bruce Brooks
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
            Bruce,

            Thanks very much for the references below. Does anyone know of any online availability of these?

            Chuck

            Rev. Chuck Jones
            Atlanta, Georgia

            E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:
            ...The three in question read as follows:

            Theory #23. B > C >> A [Wilke Hypothesis 1838: Mark first; Matthew drew from both]
            Theory #24. C > A >> B [Büsching Hypothesis 1766: Luke first; Mark conflated both]
            Theory #25. C > B >> A [Lockton Hypothesis 1922: Luke first; Matthew drew from both]


            ---------------------------------
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Chuck Jones
            Bruce wrote: I would personally be glad to see a Lk Mt directionality argument, for any passage of choice. Consider this response one vote in favor of such a
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
              Bruce wrote:

              I would personally be glad to see a Lk > Mt directionality argument, for any
              passage of choice. Consider this response one vote in favor of such a
              contribution.

              Bruce,

              If Mt used Lk, a significant structural issue would dissolve--the fact that much of the double tradition in Mt is organized into five speeches while in Lk it is scattered through the book.

              Two individual passage relationships that make much more sense if Mt used Lk are the lord's prayer and the beautitudes.

              Of course, many passage relationships can be trotted out in which it makes most sense that Lk used Mt.

              I think one of the strongest arguments for the existence of an independent source (Q) is the fact that sometimes Mt's version of a passage seems more "primitive" than Lk's and vice versa. One would expect evident dependence to flow in a single direction if there was no independent source for the double tradition.

              This is what prompted me to start this thread. The theory that Lk used Mt has many holes in it. So would the theory that Mt used Lk. I wonder why the later seems to have no current advocates. Too many holes maybe?

              Chuck

              Rev. Chuck Jones
              Atlanta, Georgia


              ---------------------------------
              Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • E Bruce Brooks
              To: Synoptic Cc: WSW In Response To: Chuck Jones On: Mt Lk From: Bruce CHUCK: If Mt used Lk, a significant structural issue would dissolve--the fact that
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
                To: Synoptic
                Cc: WSW
                In Response To: Chuck Jones
                On: Mt > Lk
                From: Bruce

                CHUCK: If Mt used Lk, a significant structural issue would dissolve--the
                fact that much of the double tradition in Mt is organized into five speeches
                while in Lk it is scattered through the book.

                BRUCE: Certainly two of the great overreaching empirical facts about Mt and
                Lk are that (a) in the details they share with Mk they largely have the same
                order as Mk, but (b) in details which they share only with each other, they
                typically have different order. This latter, plus the claim that (c) there
                is no constant directionality in those Mt/Lk shared units, is what gives us
                the Q hypothesis.

                I think the sovereign principle in directionality questions, articulated by
                Metzger and attributed by him to Griesbach, is that "that version is
                original which can be most readily seen as giving rise to the other." Most
                people, I believe, will find it easier to imagine that Mt has thematically
                grouped certain sayings from a less organized prior version, than that Lk
                has merely scattered them, with no other end in view. If instead Lk is
                actually following the order of a prior source, and merely keeping that
                order (whatever its own logic or lack of it), whereas Mt is changing that
                prior order into a more thematically clustered and literarily impressive
                form, then the logic of both Mt and Lk appears cogent. This too gives us Q,
                along with the additional assumption that the order of Q was that of Lk
                (otherwise the problem of order in Lk remains unsolved).

                So, yes, these are big time issues.

                CHUCK: Two individual passage relationships that make much more sense if Mt
                used Lk are the Lord's Prayer and the Beatitudes.

                BRUCE: Because, in the case of the Lord's Prayer, the Lukan version is
                shorter, right? There is more to be said on this highly visible passage. I
                again recommend the treatment by Austin Farrer, in his essay reprinted in
                the Bellinzoni volume. In terms of my old Synopsis, the Matthean version
                [6:9-15], with those parts not present in Lk [11:2-4] bracketed, and
                omitting some parts attested by less than all MS authorities, and ignoring
                small differences, would be:

                "[Our] Father, [who art in Heaven], hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come,
                [Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven]. Give us this [/each] day
                our daily bread, and forgive us our debts [/sins], as we also have forgiven
                our debtors, and lead us not into temptation [but deliver us from evil].

                The Lukan version is superficially more apocalyptic, and thus arguably more
                primitive. The Matthean version might defensibly be called watered-down
                apocalyptic, and thus derivative: the Lord's Prayer not of a universe about
                to vanish, but of a steady-state universe. And thus later, after the hope of
                a soon end of the world had been in some measure given up, or at least put
                on long hold.

                Those wanting to sample a huge mass of opinion on this and on at least some
                of the Beatitudes will find useful two of the Documenta Q volumes mentioned
                earlier: (1) Q 11:2b-4 (The Lord's Prayer), Stanley D Anderson (ed), Peeters
                1996, and (2) Q 6:20-21 (The Beatitudes for the Poor, Hungry, and Mourning),
                Thomas Hieke (ed), Peeters 2001. No matter which side of the argument you
                like, and in these volumes it is dissected line by line, you will have very
                great NT names on your side. What I call a win/win situation.

                CHUCK: Of course, many passage relationships can be trotted out in which it
                makes most sense that Lk used Mt.

                BRUCE: I like neutral terminology better. The fact is that many more Mt/Lk
                doublets suggest a Mt > Lk relationship than the opposite. This casts the
                Lord's Prayer and a few other examples in an especially strong light, as
                exceptions in that almost general flow. Of course, if the general flow could
                be shown to be the total flow, if the LP and a few other high-profile items
                could be analyzed as Mt > Lk, then we would have Mk > Mt >> Lk as our
                indicated Synoptic Theory, and Q would simply vanish. Except of course for
                the unsold warehouse stock, and that is not my concern.

                CHUCK: I think one of the strongest arguments for the existence of an
                independent source (Q) is the fact that sometimes Mt's version of a passage
                seems more "primitive" than Lk's and vice versa. One would expect evident
                dependence to flow in a single direction if there was no independent source
                for the double tradition.

                BRUCE: Fully agreed. This was the view of Harnack among many others. As far
                as I understand it, this conclusion is a foundation stone of the present
                majority opinion. It was precisely a unidirectionality of flow, in the
                direction Mt > Lk, that Goulder sought to demonstrate in detail. I find that
                Goulder mixes in too many other ideas along with this task, and I observe
                that his view has been faulted largely through objections to those other
                ideas, without fully confronting his directionality analysis. That might
                suggest a revising of his directionality arguments, as such, straight.

                But we have here among us the Heir Presumptive to the Farrer-Goulder line of
                argument, and perhaps we ought at this point to pause for a word from him.

                E Bruce Brooks
                Warring States Project
                University of Massachusetts at Amherst
                http://www.umass.edu/wsp
              • E Bruce Brooks
                To: Synoptic Cc: WSW In Response To: Chuck Jones (PPS) On: Lk Mt Passages (The Refused Invitation) From: Bruce How much general interest there may be in this
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
                  To: Synoptic
                  Cc: WSW
                  In Response To: Chuck Jones (PPS)
                  On: Lk > Mt Passages (The Refused Invitation)
                  From: Bruce

                  How much general interest there may be in this exchange I cannot tell, but I
                  may offer one further addendum to my previous suggestions about passages in
                  Mt which have been thought to be secondary to their parallels in Lk.

                  McNeile (1915) xxvii, in confidently dating Matthew to after the Roman
                  destruction of the Temple in the year 70, relied on Mt 22:1-10 as a post-70
                  rewriting of Lk 14:16-24, or its source. Benjamin Bacon, Studies in Matthew
                  (1930) 64, explains why McNeile drew this inference. He places the two
                  passages side by side (a thing not practicable in E-mail), and italicizes
                  the parts in the Mt version that depart from the Lk version. It should be
                  said by way of context that this segment is immediately preceded in Mt by a
                  parable which Mt, Mk, and Lk all contain: the Parable of the Wicked Tenants.
                  The burden of that parable is that the owner of the vineyard, when he comes,
                  will kill the wicket tenants and give the vineyard to others entirely. This
                  already looks like a symbol of the rejection of the Jewish nation, but in
                  all versions it is explicitly explained as having been told "against the
                  Pharisees," that is, it means a power displacement within Judaism, not a
                  rejection of Judaism in favor of another nation entirely.

                  But in the Matthean version, there follows (after the quote from Psa 118,
                  "the stone which the builders rejected"), this comment, as spoken by Jesus,
                  which is without parallel in Mk or Lk: "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of
                  God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits
                  of it" [Mt 21:43]. It would seem to me that this extra and uniquely Matthean
                  note DOES envision the turning away of God from Israel as such.

                  Now we move on to the next Matthean item. Mark here drops out, and we have
                  the parable of the Refused Invitation (some call it the Marriage Feast, but
                  that only describes the Matthean version). The Lukan version is at a non-cor
                  responding place in Lk. I put in CAPS the material in Mt which differs from
                  that in Lk, and otherwise copy Bacon p65f:

                  AND JESUS ANSWERED AND SPAKE TO THEM AGAIN IN PARABLES, saying, THE KINGDOM
                  OF HEAVEN IS LIKENED UNTO a certain KING WHO made a MARRIAGE supper FOR HIS
                  SON. And he sent forth his servants to invite the gueses to the WEDDING, and
                  they would not come. AGAIN HE SENT OTHER SERVANTS, SAYING, TELL THE GUESTS,
                  LO, I HAVE PREPARED MY BANQUET, MY OXEN AND MY FATLINGS ARE SLAUGHTERED AND
                  ALL THINGS ARE READY: COME TO THE WEDDING. But they paid no heed and went
                  away, one to his field, another to his merchandise - AND THE REST LAID HOLD
                  ON HIS SERVANTS AND MALTREATED AND KILLED THEM. BUT THE KING WAS ANGRY AND
                  SENT HIS ARMIES AND DESTROYED THOSE MURDERERS AND BURNED THEIR CITY. - Then
                  he saith to his servants, THE WEDDING IS READY, BUT THE INVITED GUESTS WERE
                  NOT WORTHY. Go forth they to the partings of the roads and invite all that
                  ye find to the WEDDING. So those servants went forth into the highways, and
                  gathered all that they found, BOTH BAD AND GOOD, and the WEDDING was
                  supplied with guests.

                  The "both bad and good" part is to prepare for the unique passage Mt 22:11f,
                  where the wedding guest without a wedding garment is bound and "cast into
                  the outer darkness; there man will weep and gnash their teeth." One feels
                  that the pose of allegory has been here abandoned, and that we have
                  dissolved into the Final Judgement itself.

                  In terms of basic concinnity, it seems to me obvious that the points of
                  difference with the Lk version make a hash of the Matthean version. One
                  minute we have a ruler angry with his neighbors, and the next minute that
                  ruler has become a distance enemy, who sends his armies to burn their city,
                  the teller of the tale evidently forgetting that by the previous narrative
                  it is his own city too. The absentee owner of the preceding vineyard has
                  evidently impressed itself here on aMk, to the exclusion of aMk's sense of
                  where his story has been going. Not to mention that the servants of the king
                  are no sooner killed by the unwilling guests than he has a second supply to
                  do his further bidding; a gaucherie which was not committed by any version
                  of the preceding parable (where successive servants are sent, and finally
                  the landlord's own son). The narrative scale is not consistent, and the
                  rationality of the dramatis personae also leaves something to be desired.
                  Then the Lk version, to which none of these objections apply, would seem to
                  be nearer to the original, with the Mt version some sort of variation on it.

                  McNeile's point, expanded by Bacon, is that the burning of the city seems
                  decisively to refer to the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in the Jewish
                  Revolt of 70. I am prepared to concede that point.

                  COMMENT

                  It would seem to follow, though Bacon did not pause to note this, that if
                  the Matthean changes were what made this 70 reference unmistakable, then
                  they were NOT unmistakable in the Lk version (or its original), which might
                  defensibly be dated to BEFORE the year 70. But there are pretty clear
                  indications of the end of Jerusalem in the parallel Lk material, and
                  especially in what precedes that material (in Q, what *directly* precedes
                  that material) in Lk.

                  P45, Alexandrinus, and a few other manuscripts lack Mt 22:1-14, but due to
                  damage rather than omission. There is then no warrant for supposing that Mt
                  22:1-14 was added after the closing of the text of Mt, and for scenarios, we
                  seem to be limited to events occurring during the formation periods of the
                  respective Gospels.

                  Sequence. In Lk, the Refused Invitation parable does not follow the Wicked
                  Tenants parable, but instead comes after a "parable" in which instructions
                  are given for guests at formal banquets: not to take the highest place, lest
                  you be displaced by a later arriving and more honorable guest. Also, when
                  you give a feast, invite the poor, and you will be blessed since they cannot
                  repay you. This is not a parable in the usual sense of "parable." Then
                  follows the Refused Invitation piece, as though in answer to a remark by a
                  guest at a banquet where Jesus was also present (this is spelled out in Lk
                  14:1). Are these preceding comments also present in Q? Not at any rate in
                  the Critical Edition of Q, where the numbers are given, but then crossed
                  out. The preceding thing in that version of Q is Lk 13:34-35, including the
                  remark to Jerusalem, "Look, your house is forsaken!" To that warning, as
                  noted above, Lk 14:16f as the next Q piece would be thematically relevant,
                  IF we take it also in the sense of the rejection of Israel. This is
                  countenanced, albeit less dramatically than in Mt, by the concluding line in
                  Lk (not paralleled in Mt): "For I tell you, None of those men who were
                  invited shall taste my banquet. The rejection of Israel is not necessarily
                  the same as the destruction of Jerusalem, though it is possible to imagine
                  the difference being bridged by sufficiently skillful argument.

                  The Q scenario apparently is that a previous text contained the simple
                  (Lukan) form of this story, and that separately (a) Matthew elaborated it
                  into a variant of the Wicked Tenants story, and placed it by association
                  after that story, and (b) Luke retained it more or less as it was, keeping
                  it after the warning to Jerusalem but interpolating a context which makes a
                  story about banquet guests apposite. This is a little awkward, though it
                  might perhaps be improved by further reconsideration about what one thinks
                  was originally contained in Q. The trouble, from a Q point of view, is that
                  the more we do this, the more Q and Lk tend to converge.

                  There are thus at least modest difficulties in any direction, and I leave it
                  at that stage, noting that it is easier to imagine the Matthean version
                  having been altered from a Lukan original than vice versa.

                  Anyone have a comment?

                  Bruce

                  E Bruce Brooks
                  Warring States Project
                  University of Massachusetts at Amherst
                • Ron Price
                  ... Bruce, This focus on the transition seems to me to be unduly narrow, and therefore flawed. It fails to ask about the likelihood or otherwise that the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
                    Bruce Brooks wrote:

                    > I think the sovereign principle in directionality questions, articulated by
                    > Metzger and attributed by him to Griesbach, is that "that version is
                    > original which can be most readily seen as giving rise to the other."

                    Bruce,

                    This focus on the transition seems to me to be unduly narrow, and therefore
                    flawed. It fails to ask about the likelihood or otherwise that the earlier
                    text could have been composed as postulated (see below).

                    > Most
                    > people, I believe, will find it easier to imagine that Mt has thematically
                    > grouped certain sayings from a less organized prior version, than that Lk
                    > has merely scattered them, with no other end in view. If instead Lk is
                    > actually following the order of a prior source, and merely keeping that
                    > order (whatever its own logic or lack of it), whereas Mt is changing that
                    > prior order into a more thematically clustered and literarily impressive
                    > form, then the logic of both Mt and Lk appears cogent.

                    This is what I find nonsensical. If it is difficult to understand the lack
                    of order of sayings in Luke, how much more difficult to understand the lack
                    of order in those same sayings in the much smaller early sayings source.
                    Would anyone have created such a mess? Luke, on the other hand, does have a
                    structure, and there are indications for at least some sayings why they were
                    moved. For instance the saying about asking (11:9-13) is deliberately placed
                    after two passages concerning prayer, and the salt saying (14:34-35) might
                    have been deliberately placed next to a brief scene which mentions eating
                    (15:1-2). Similarly Luke placed the saying about the greatest (22:24-27,
                    with its Lukan addition "But I am among you as one who serves") within the
                    passion story in order to present Jesus as the Servant who suffers (c.f. Is
                    53). Note that Luke's narrative context provides lots of opportunities for
                    non-sequential selection of suitable sayings, and contrast this with a
                    (nearly?) pure sayings source where there is little or no such context. The
                    idea that Luke retained almost all of the sayings source in its original
                    order is, to my mind, incredible.

                    > This too gives us Q,
                    > along with the additional assumption that the order of Q was that of Lk
                    > (otherwise the problem of order in Lk remains unsolved).

                    There you go again (though I realize you're following what many others have
                    written). How on earth is a perceived problematic order solved by blaming it
                    on an earlier source? Is it a case of 'Out of sight, out of mind'?

                    Ron Price

                    Derbyshire, UK

                    Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                  • E Bruce Brooks
                    To: Synoptic Cc: Al Cohen; WSW In Response To: Ron Price On: Methodology Points in re Q From: Bruce I had said, BRUCE: I think the sovereign principle in
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
                      To: Synoptic
                      Cc: Al Cohen; WSW
                      In Response To: Ron Price
                      On: Methodology Points in re Q
                      From: Bruce

                      I had said,

                      BRUCE: I think the sovereign principle in directionality questions,
                      articulated by Metzger and attributed by him (perhaps a bit too generously)
                      to Griesbach, is that "that version is original which can be most readily
                      seen as giving rise to the other."

                      RON: This focus on the transition seems to me to be unduly narrow, and
                      therefore flawed.

                      BRUCE: For fine points of variant wording in manuscripts, as well as for
                      large points of relationship between whole texts, I think it is the best we
                      have. Narrower precepts, such as Griesbach's own "lectio brevior" dictum,
                      simply don't cover the ground which philology actually encounters, as
                      Sanders was at pains to show, at both the word and the text level, in his
                      Tendency of the Synoptic Tradition (1969). And as Housman had long before
                      remarked, in terms more caustic than I would care to use in the present
                      environment, but those who feel themselves up to that challenge may consult
                      him direct (http://www.umass.edu/wsp > Philology > Housman).

                      RON: . . . It fails to ask about the likelihood or otherwise that the
                      earlier text could have been composed as postulated (see below).

                      BRUCE: Not at all. It opens judgement to all the evidence, not merely to the
                      wordcount of some fraction of the evidence. As for "below," see below.

                      I had next said:

                      BRUCE: Most people, I believe, will find it easier to imagine that Mt has
                      thematically grouped certain sayings from a less organized prior version,
                      than that Lk has merely scattered them, with no other end in view. If
                      instead Lk is actually following the order of a prior source, and merely
                      keeping that order (whatever its own logic or lack of it), whereas Mt is
                      changing that prior order into a more thematically clustered and literarily
                      impressive form, then the logic of both Mt and Lk appears cogent.

                      RON: This is what I find nonsensical. If it is difficult to understand the
                      lack of order of sayings in Luke, how much more difficult to understand the
                      lack of order in those same sayings in the much smaller early sayings
                      source. Would anyone have created such a mess?

                      BRUCE: That is very easy to understand, and I think that it is part of the
                      appeal of Q, allegedly a "sayings Gospel," that it offers such an
                      understanding. It is a question of genre. Luke, if we take note of its
                      manifest form, and/or the intention expressed in the ostensible
                      self-introduction, is trying to put together a coherent narrative account; a
                      history. If his material appears unordered by that criterion, that is, if it
                      doesn't make narrative sense, then there is a problem between the seeming
                      intention of Luke and the text that Luke has actually produced. On the other
                      hand, Q is supposed to be a "sayings Gospel," for which one model is Thomas.
                      Thomas tells no very visible story. It simply gives you wisdom vignettes one
                      after the other, though sometimes with keyword or other associational links.
                      It has never been perceived as a fault in Thomas that it does NOT tell a
                      story, because storytelling is not the formal intent of that kind of text.
                      No reasonable and genre-conscious person could possibly object.

                      [I have mentioned before that this "sayings collection" genre, though rare
                      or even conjectural in the Mediterranean world, is very common in the
                      contemporary and slightly earlier classical Chinese world, and that
                      experience gained with these EXTANT early Chinese wisdom collection might be
                      useful to the NT field. I mention it again, but only in parentheses. Does
                      this mean that all seminarians should learn classical Chinese? No. But they
                      might manage to lunch occasionally with someone who has a foot on that shore
                      of our common lake].

                      The "Sermon on the Mount" literature is there in its reverential depth and
                      enthusiastic breadth to attest that the Matthean arrangement of the "Q"
                      wisdom material is supremely convincing and thus successful. The same
                      material is more dispersed in Luke, and most readers seem to have found Luke
                      inferior to Matthew in this respect. Thus arises a difficulty for the theory
                      that Luke used Matthew: Why (people perpetually ask) would Luke break up the
                      Sermon on the Mount, of all things, and that in a way which achieves a
                      notably less successful result? A terrible situation, surely. But if Luke is
                      NOT using Matthew, but is INSTEAD respecting the order of a wisdom or
                      Sayings source for this material, just as he respects the order of the
                      narrative material he has taken from Matthew, then (1) any defects in order
                      of Luke's wisdom material, as compared to Matthew, are to be attributed to
                      the "wisdom" order, which will be at most an associational order, in Luke's
                      source, and Luke is not to be faulted for his faithfulness to his source.
                      His seeming defect as an author accordingly vanishes. This is a conclusion
                      which is likely to be applauded by fans of Luke, and everybody is in some
                      degree a fan of Luke.

                      RON: Luke, on the other hand, does have a structure, and there are
                      indications for at least some sayings why they were
                      moved. For instance the saying about asking (11:9-13) is deliberately placed
                      after two passages concerning prayer, and the salt saying (14:34-35) might
                      have been deliberately placed next to a brief scene which mentions eating
                      (15:1-2). Similarly Luke placed the saying about the greatest (22:24-27,
                      with its Lukan addition "But I am among you as one who serves") within the
                      passion story in order to present Jesus as the Servant who suffers (c.f. Is
                      53).

                      BRUCE: This is precisely what I mean by "associational" ordering, as
                      distinct from the historical ordering which Luke otherwise purports to
                      exhibit. Luke as it stands, especially as read by someone who knows Matthew,
                      seems to hover between two genres: narrative (things in historical order),
                      and wisdom (things in associational clusters). If instead the author of Luke
                      is merely alternating between two sources of different genre, and doing his
                      best to intercalate the one into the other, then all is well. No?

                      [I should add that Ron's suggestions of how Luke might rationally be derived
                      from Matthew, without the hypothesis of a separate source Q, may well be
                      helpful contributions toward the World Without Q which some at least on this
                      list have in mind as the right answer to the question. I don't evaluate
                      those possibilities here, but I am aware of their potential].

                      RON: Note that Luke's narrative context provides lots of opportunities for
                      non-sequential selection of suitable sayings, and contrast this with a
                      (nearly?) pure sayings source where there is little or no such context. The
                      idea that Luke retained almost all of the sayings source in its original
                      order is, to my mind, incredible.

                      BRUCE: Well, go argue that one with the Q establishment. I do so myself, and
                      I would take up some details on this list, except that the last time I
                      offered to do so, no particular interest seemed to exist. Far be it from me
                      to bore a large concentration of learned persons, least of all at this
                      season of the year.

                      Noting, in any case, the attractions of this model for framers or acceptors
                      of Q, I had added:

                      BRUCE: This too gives us Q, along with the additional assumption that the
                      order of Q was that of Lk (otherwise the problem of order in Lk remains
                      unsolved).

                      RON: There you go again (though I realize you're following what many others
                      have written).

                      BRUCE: I am indeed; I am in part trying to inhabit the mind of Q acceptors,
                      and see what is going on in there. I think that the whole enterprise rests
                      on feet of something or other, but that does not mean that there is nothing
                      that an approach de novo cannot use, or usefully provide for in other ways.

                      RON: How on earth is a perceived problematic order solved by blaming it on
                      an earlier source? Is it a case of 'Out of sight, out of mind'?

                      BRUCE: Tsk. Already answered, but once again: There is no question of
                      "blame," merely a question of trying to find what makes sense of the data in
                      front of our noses. If the wisdom material in Lk is even in part
                      associational, then to that extent it constitutes a departure from Lk's
                      otherwise historical texture. That is one alternative, and it is not very
                      flattering to Luke. But If the wisdom material in Lk is associational, not
                      because Lk has changed his structural principle in midstream (and back
                      again, over and over, like some bipolar idiot), but merely because he has
                      changed his source, with a view to completeness, telling the WHOLE story of
                      Jesus as best he can with the sources available to him, then our view of Lk
                      as a historian is altered for the better, and our view of Lk's sanity
                      (faulted already by Streeter and by others since) becomes more benign. I
                      suspect that people like this, and I also suspect that their liking it is
                      one of the ongoing attractions of the Q idea.

                      I like it myself, but I am not prepared to stop there. The editors of the
                      Critical Edition of Q have not only given a table of contents of Q as they
                      see it, but also a list of Q in Matthean order. In those lists, or in the
                      somewhat simpler but largely equivalent table given by Raymond Brown in his
                      Introduction, one can see that some sayings or other units which are
                      consecutive in Matthew have been, so to speak, broken up and rearranged in
                      Q. To their credit, the Documenta Q people consider scholarly opinions, not
                      only about the wording of the units they discuss, but also about their
                      sequential order. If we take the Matthean and not the Lukan sequence of the
                      Q material as more likely to be original (just a thought experiment), then
                      we find a whole different picture in front of us; one which, like the other,
                      makes sense of the material, but DIFFERENT sense of DIFFERENT PARTS of the
                      material. Probably, somewhere in the gigantic Q literature, someone has
                      investigated the possible implications and consequences of this. Can anyone
                      here present point to such an investigation, or summarize its findings?

                      E Bruce Brooks
                      Warring States Project
                      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
                      http://www.umass.edu/wsp
                    • Ron Price
                      ... Bruce, I don t see how you come to this conclusion. The focus is solely on the process of giving rise to , i.e. on how the author of the later text might
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 3, 2006
                        Bruce Brooks wrote:

                        > I think the sovereign principle in directionality questions,
                        > articulated by Metzger and attributed by him (perhaps a bit too generously)
                        > to Griesbach, is that "that version is original which can be most readily
                        > seen as giving rise to the other."
                        > ...
                        > [This principle] opens judgement to all the evidence

                        Bruce,

                        I don't see how you come to this conclusion. The focus is solely on the
                        process of "giving rise to", i.e. on how the author of the later text might
                        have edited the earlier text. There is no mention of assessing the
                        plausibility of the behaviour of the author in producing the earlier text.
                        This is why I say the principle is too narrow.

                        >> If it is difficult to understand the
                        >> lack of order of sayings in Luke, how much more difficult to understand the
                        >> lack of order in those same sayings in the much smaller early sayings
                        >> source. Would anyone have created such a mess?

                        > It is a question of genre.
                        > ..... Q is supposed to be a "sayings Gospel," for which one model is Thomas.
                        > Thomas tells no very visible story.

                        The clue is in your words "supposed to be". Q is a mess by comparison with
                        GTh because (a) it contains some narratives (b) the distribution of these
                        narratives is peculiarly skewed (c) it contains some words attributed to
                        John the Baptist. It is indeed a question of genre, and if one looks at the
                        contents of Q in an investigative rather than a defensive manner, it will be
                        seen that Q doesn't fit any known genre, despite Kloppenborg's strenuous
                        attempts to prove otherwise. Q is an oddity. No person in their right mind
                        could have produced such an inconsistent mess. When will the NT world wake
                        up to this?

                        > ..... But if Luke is
                        > NOT using Matthew, but is INSTEAD respecting the order of a wisdom or
                        > Sayings source for this material, just as he respects the order of the
                        > narrative material he has taken from Matthew,

                        Presumably you mean Mark.
                        You're not making sufficient allowance for the difference between narrative
                        and sayings. The order of the former was often constrained by the logic of
                        the overall story. Matthew and Luke were both free to make many changes to
                        the order of the sayings without thereby showing any disrespect.

                        > ..... any defects in order of Luke's wisdom material, as compared to
                        > Matthew, are to be attributed to the "wisdom" order,

                        Or it could be that the subtlety of Luke's editorial endeavours is beyond
                        the comprehension of modern commentators. Why are they so sure of
                        themselves? Luke's skill has been vastly underestimated.

                        > which will be at most an associational order,

                        If you mean 'the wisdom material will only be ordered by word associations
                        between adjacent sayings', then I don't agree. In my reconstruction of the
                        sayings source there are 46 other links (including seven in a recent
                        discovery of one-to-one links between the blessings and the woes), plus a
                        clear division into four sections, two of which are each clearly divided
                        into two equal halves.

                        > ..... Luke is not to be faulted for his faithfulness to his source.

                        This is a widely held scholarly assumption. However it is untrue. For
                        instance, scholars arguably only reject Lk 10:5b and 10:23 because they make
                        this very assumption.

                        > ..... everybody is in some degree a fan of Luke.

                        Yes. But why? It's in part because he rejected sayings such as Mt 6:7; 7:6;
                        10:5b and 10:23, and in two other cases replaced "Gentiles" by a euphemism
                        to avoid a slur. Basically Luke is attractive to Gentiles because he tends
                        to remove the evidence of authentic pro-Jewish attitudes (which we should
                        naturally expect from the original disciples), to play down apocalyptic
                        fervour (unpalatable to most Christians from Luke's time onwards), and to
                        introduce nice little stories like the Good Samaritan which praises a
                        non-Jew.

                        > Luke as it stands, especially as read by someone who knows Matthew,
                        > seems to hover between two genres: narrative (things in historical order),
                        > and wisdom (things in associational clusters). If instead the author of Luke
                        > is merely alternating between two sources of different genre, and doing his
                        > best to intercalate the one into the other, then all is well. No?

                        He was indeed doing his best at intercalation. Unfortunately NT scholarship
                        on the whole seriously underestimates the freedom which Luke exercised in
                        reordering his sayings source and in creating new parables.

                        > ..... I am in part trying to inhabit the mind of Q acceptors,
                        > and see what is going on in there. I think that the whole enterprise rests
                        > on feet of something or other, but that does not mean that there is nothing
                        > that an approach de novo cannot use, or usefully provide for in other ways.

                        This is exactly what I've done (my new approach salvaging the majority of
                        Q), and what Farrer supporters have conspicuously avoided doing.

                        > If the wisdom material in Lk is even in part
                        > associational, then to that extent it constitutes a departure from Lk's
                        > otherwise historical texture. That is one alternative, and it is not very
                        > flattering to Luke. But If the wisdom material in Lk is associational, not
                        > because Lk has changed his structural principle in midstream (and back
                        > again, over and over, like some bipolar idiot),

                        Again I think you underestimate Luke's flexibility. He was extremely skilled
                        in several aspects of literature. He could even imitate the style of others,
                        whether Hebraic, Septuagintal or formal. There's no reason why he shouldn't
                        have made use of association, and I referred to least one example (the theme
                        of prayer in Lk 11:2-4; 5-8; 9-13). In any case Luke's "historical texture"
                        was somewhat stretched in the artificial 'journey to Jerusalem'.

                        > If we take the Matthean and not the Lukan sequence of the
                        > Q material as more likely to be original (just a thought experiment), then
                        > we find a whole different picture in front of us; one which, like the other,
                        > makes sense of the material, but DIFFERENT sense of DIFFERENT PARTS of the
                        > material. Probably, somewhere in the gigantic Q literature, someone has
                        > investigated the possible implications and consequences of this. Can anyone
                        > here present point to such an investigation, or summarize its findings?

                        My Web site contains the detailed results of an investigation which adopts
                        this as well as other revolutionary approaches. The resulting proposed order
                        of the original sayings in relation to their positions in the synoptics can
                        best be seen on the following page:

                        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_sQsQ.html

                        Ron Price

                        Derbyshire, UK

                        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                      • Ron Price
                        ... Chuck, That s a fair question. Firstly compared to the nearest documents: the synoptic gospels, all of which have a definite structure and a story line
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 4, 2006
                          Chuck Jones wrote:

                          > Q is a mess compared to what?

                          Chuck,

                          That's a fair question.

                          Firstly compared to the nearest documents: the synoptic gospels, all of
                          which have a definite structure and a story line which develops logically
                          from a dramatically sensible start to a dramatically sensible end.

                          Secondly compared to what are perhaps the theologically closest collections
                          of sayings/poetry: the psalms, the proverbs and GTh. All three of these
                          appear to exhibit a remarkable uniformity of style. I would expect any
                          sayings collection produced by the earliest followers of Jesus to have had
                          at least this degree of stylistic uniformity.

                          > It seems to me that a natural trajectory of gathering and retaining memories
                          > from the career of Jesus would be something like (1) the community told,
                          > retold and created stories about the sayings and deeds of Jesus, (2) they
                          > began to write the stories down, (3) the stories were gathered into
                          > collections, (4) at some point those collections were arranged thematically,
                          > and then (4), evidently with Mark, they were arranged into a career/life-of
                          > narrative framework.
                          >
                          > If Mt and Lk drew from a document produced at stage (3), is it fair to call
                          > that document a mess?

                          I'm not happy with your trajectory, for it seems to me to demand a leisurely
                          timescale which would not fit into the time available. Don't forget that
                          Paul had met Peter, and Mark was probably written less than ten years after
                          Paul's death. Another problem is that the death and destruction associated
                          with the Jewish rebellion would have cut across any chain of oral tradition.
                          Finally another barrier becomes apparent when we take together the fact that
                          Paul showed relatively little interest in the sayings of Jesus, and the fact
                          that Pauline Christianity rapidly became the norm. It seems to me that the
                          only way a large number of Jesus' sayings could have been reliably
                          transmitted to posterity is if the twelve committed them to writing before
                          ca. 60 CE whilst Jerusalem was at peace (which indeed is just what I am
                          proposing). Furthermore I would expect them to put in the requisite
                          expertise and effort to make a good job of it right from the start, once
                          they had decided that Jesus' return was not quite so imminent as to make the
                          job pointless.

                          Ron Price

                          Derbyshire, UK

                          Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                        • Chuck Jones
                          Ron, My reconstruction implies no particular elapsed time. In fact a compressed time frame would make it more likely that Mt and Lk would have a stage 3
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 5, 2006
                            Ron,

                            My reconstruction implies no particular elapsed time. In fact a compressed time frame would make it more likely that Mt and Lk would have a stage 3 document (collected sayings that had not been placed into any thematic order) at their disposal.

                            Chuck

                            Rev. Chuck Jones
                            Atlanta, Georgia

                            Chuck Jones wrote:

                            > It seems to me that a natural trajectory of gathering and retaining memories
                            > from the career of Jesus would be something like (1) the community told,
                            > retold and created stories about the sayings and deeds of Jesus, (2) they
                            > began to write the stories down, (3) the stories were gathered into
                            > collections, (4) at some point those collections were arranged thematically,
                            > and then (4), evidently with Mark, they were arranged into a career/life-of
                            > narrative framework.
                            >
                            > If Mt and Lk drew from a document produced at stage (3), is it fair to call
                            > that document a mess?

                            Bruce replied:
                            I'm not happy with your trajectory, for it seems to me to demand a leisurely
                            timescale which would not fit into the time available. Don't forget that
                            Paul had met Peter, and Mark was probably written less than ten years after
                            Paul's death. Another problem is that the death and destruction associated
                            with the Jewish rebellion would have cut across any chain of oral tradition.
                            Finally another barrier becomes apparent when we take together the fact that
                            Paul showed relatively little interest in the sayings of Jesus, and the fact
                            that Pauline Christianity rapidly became the norm. It seems to me that the
                            only way a large number of Jesus' sayings could have been reliably
                            transmitted to posterity is if the twelve committed them to writing before
                            ca. 60 CE whilst Jerusalem was at peace (which indeed is just what I am
                            proposing). Furthermore I would expect them to put in the requisite
                            expertise and effort to make a good job of it right from the start, once
                            they had decided that Jesus' return was not quite so imminent as to make the
                            job pointless.



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