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Re: [Synoptic-L] Kloppenborg vs. Fleddermann

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    Ron wrote of Fleddermann: (4) He appears to evade altogether the main criticism usually levelled at those who claim Mark depended on the sayings source, i.e.
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 28, 2006
      Ron wrote of Fleddermann:
      (4) He appears to evade altogether the main criticism usually levelled at
      those who claim Mark depended on the sayings source, i.e. if so why did Mark
      omit so much of it? (I suspect that he is afraid to draw attention to Mark's
      many omissions because this would tend to weigh against his claim that
      neither Matthew nor Mark omitted even a single saying.)

      Leonard: you mean, I think: "...this would tend to weigh against his claim that neither Matthew nor Luke omitted even a single saying."

      Even more to be feared, of course, would be the conclusion that -- if Mark can have omitted so much from Q, may there not loom the terrifying specter of a 2GH Mark, who did the same with Matthew and Luke?

      Leonard Maluf
      Blessed John XXIII National Seminary
      Weston, MA
      ________________________________________________________________________
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    • Ron Price
      ... Leonard, Yes, I meant neither Matthew nor Luke . ... Nice try, Leonard. But I doubt whether Fleddermann loses any sleep over the 2GH. For most of Mark s
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 29, 2006
        I wrote:

        >> (I suspect that he is afraid to draw attention to Mark's
        >> many omissions because this would tend to weigh against his claim that
        >> neither Matthew nor Mark omitted even a single saying.)

        Leonard Maluf replied:

        > you mean, I think: "...this would tend to weigh against his claim
        > that neither Matthew nor Luke omitted even a single saying."

        Leonard,

        Yes, I meant "neither Matthew nor Luke".

        > Even more to be feared, of course, would be the conclusion that -- if Mark can
        > have omitted so much from Q, may there not loom the terrifying specter of a
        > 2GH Mark, who did the same with Matthew and Luke?

        Nice try, Leonard.

        But I doubt whether Fleddermann loses any sleep over the 2GH.

        For most of Mark's omissions from the early sayings source there is a ready
        explanation. Also his omissions leave more room for his own imaginative
        contributions to the gospel. On the 2GH, Mark's contributions are so few
        that it's difficult to see why he would have bothered. Hadn't Luke (on your
        hypothesis) already omitted some of the most pointedly pro-Jewish sayings
        (Mt 7:6; 10:5,23), presented a Samaritan as better than Jews (Lk 10:29-37)
        extended the genealogy back to Adam, and presented a gospel suitable for
        Gentiles?

        Mark would have been superfluous had it not been the foundation for Matthew
        and Luke, as the relative unpopularity of Mark in the early centuries surely
        indicates.

        Ron Price

        Derbyshire, UK

        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
      • Maluflen@aol.com
        Ron Price wrote: Mark would have been superfluous had it not been the foundation for Matthew and Luke, as the relative unpopularity of Mark in the early
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 30, 2006
          Ron Price wrote:
          Mark would have been superfluous had it not been the foundation for Matthew
          and Luke, as the relative unpopularity of Mark in the early centuries surely
          indicates.

          Leonard: The judgment about the "relative unpopularity of Mark" in the early centuries is based largely on the literary remains of those centuries. But surely, in literary circles, the more literary Gospels of Matthew, Luke and John continued, as ever, to be more used and esteemed than Mark, as they had always been. Where it was known, Mark's popularized and dramatized Gospel was probably more genuinely "popular" than other Gospels (when it finally came along), meaning that it likely was a favorite among people who did not leave much evidence to posterity because they did not write books.

          Your logic here also leaves unexplained why the enormous (relative) popularity of Mark in, say, the 20th century, in spite of the existence of Matthew and Luke. I suspect I know how you would respond to this, namely, that it is principally the new knowledge of Markan priority that has given Mark's gospel such a boost in popularity in the last couple of centuries. But I doubt that Mark's priority would have escaped being known in the early centuries, had it been a fact, or that a knowledge of its priority would have had any less impact on its popularity back then than the assumption of its priority has today.

          Leonard Maluf
          Blessed John XXIII National Seminary
          Weston, MA


          ________________________________________________________________________
          Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


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        • gentile_dave@emc.com
          Leonard wrote: But I doubt that Mark s priority would have escaped being known in the early centuries, had it been a fact. Dave: This is a reasonable question.
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 1, 2006
            Leonard wrote: But I doubt that Mark's priority would have escaped being
            known in the early centuries, had it been a fact.



            Dave: This is a reasonable question. If Mark is first, why does
            tradition say Matthew was first?



            I have a proposal, which I discussed at some length with Ron Price, and
            mentioned briefly here.

            The idea is that there was a saying source, but it was a forgery by the
            author of the gospel of Matthew, in order to justify his expansion of
            Mark.



            So first we have the gospel of Mark, maybe developed in stages, but
            already well established by the time the gospel of Matthew comes along.
            In order to justify expanding the gospel of Mark, the author of Matthew
            forges a "saying source" and claims it to be actual words of Jesus
            recorded by the disciple Matthew. The author of the gospel of Matthew
            then uses this "saying-source" to "correct" and update Mark.



            Luke is then taken in by the saying-source forgery, but recognizes the
            gospel of Matthew as contemporary. Luke makes his own gospel, using Mark
            and the "saying-source", with only occasional reference to Matthew.



            Future generations (including Pappias), are also taken in by the
            forgery, and thus credit Matthew (or at least Mathew's LOGIA) as being
            first, and Mark's gospel as being second. If this hypothesis is correct,
            it would answer Leonard's question - "If Mark is first, why does
            tradition say Matthew was first?" Of course, I realize Leonard has a
            different answer in mind.



            In discussion with Ron, I came to realize that there is very little that
            can separate his idea from mine. We did come up with some ideas for
            detailed work that could be done, and reviewing Fleddermann work, from
            the perspective of my hypothesis and his, was one of those ideas.
            However, I have not had time to pursue that yet, beyond some preliminary
            work. So, as it stands, my personal assessment currently places Ron's
            idea and mine on almost equal footing. They both correctly describe many
            points (in my opinion), and where detailed work could be done to
            separate them, I've not done anything more than begin that process. But,
            currently I know of nothing that seems to eliminate either hypothesis
            from consideration.



            Here is my current draft

            http://www.davegentile.com/synoptics/Q_forgery.html

            which just represents where I left off in the process. But comments on
            the project thus far are welcome.



            Thanks,



            Dave Gentile

            Sr. Systems Engineer/Statistician

            B.S./M.S. Physics

            M.S. Finance (ABD Management Science)

            Riverside, IL





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