Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Synoptic-L] Keramon

Expand Messages
  • Jim West
    ... Life in Biblical Israel- King & Stager, p 18, p. 29 (which shows the sleeping quarters on the second INSIDE story). I saw once somewhere but now can t
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 11, 2006
      Bob Schacht wrote:
      > At 07:41 AM 10/11/2006, Chuck Jones wrote:
      >> Bob,
      >>
      >> I believe the stairways or ladders to these rooftop patios were on the
      >> outside of the house, not the inside.
      >
      > Thanks. What evidence is there for this? That's really the bottom line,
      > isn't it?
      > An ethnocentric thought that does not count as evidence is my feeling that
      > if my bedroom was on the roof, I would not want to get there by going outside.
      > Bob
      >

      Life in Biblical Israel- King & Stager, p 18, p. 29 (which shows the
      sleeping quarters on the second INSIDE story).

      I saw once somewhere but now can't remember where- I may even have it- a
      reconstruction of a "4 room house" with the stairs on the exterior to
      the roof where mats were spread for sleeping. But sans evidence I think
      King and Stager are probably right on this.

      Best

      Jim



      --
      Jim West, ThD

      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
      http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
    • Bob Schacht
      ... Thanks, Jim. Does this show entrance to the roof through an opening in the roof for the stairs? ... Evidence-- even archaeological evidence-- can be
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 11, 2006
        At 09:52 AM 10/11/2006, Jim West wrote:


        >Bob Schacht wrote:
        >>At 07:41 AM 10/11/2006, Chuck Jones wrote:
        >>>Bob,
        >>>
        >>>I believe the stairways or ladders to these rooftop patios were on the
        >>>outside of the house, not the inside.
        >>Thanks. What evidence is there for this? That's really the bottom line,
        >>isn't it?
        >>An ethnocentric thought that does not count as evidence is my feeling
        >>that if my bedroom was on the roof, I would not want to get there by
        >>going outside.
        >>Bob
        >
        >Life in Biblical Israel- King & Stager, p 18, p. 29 (which shows the
        >sleeping quarters on the second INSIDE story).

        Thanks, Jim. Does this show entrance to the roof through an opening in the
        roof for the stairs?


        >I saw once somewhere but now can't remember where- I may even have it- a
        >reconstruction of a "4 room house" with the stairs on the exterior to the
        >roof where mats were spread for sleeping. But sans evidence I think King
        >and Stager are probably right on this.

        Evidence-- even archaeological evidence-- can be confusing unless one knows
        more about the context. For example, consider a common courtyard house--
        that is, a rectangular compound in which there are walls all around the
        outside, and access limited to one (or more) door(s), but open to the air
        in the middle. This has been common in many parts of the Middle East, and
        many archaeological commentaries on standard house plans take note of it.
        Then imagine a stairway leading from the *interior courtyard* to the roof.
        If all you have is a remnant of the compound consisting of the stairway and
        adjacent parts of the house-- but not the other three sides of the
        compound-- it might look as if the stairway is on the outside exterior,
        i.e. public side, of the house, even though it was on the inside
        (courtyard) side, and therefore private. So here we need to know whether
        "exterior" means the public side, or the internal courtyard side.

        Bob
      • Jim West
        ... Nope. Just a ladder on the outside wall where some industrious looking woman appears to be spreading grain to dry. ... I can t imagine constructing a
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 11, 2006
          Bob Schacht wrote:

          > Thanks, Jim. Does this show entrance to the roof through an opening in
          > the roof for the stairs?
          >

          Nope. Just a ladder on the outside wall where some industrious looking
          woman appears to be spreading grain to dry.

          >
          > Evidence-- even archaeological evidence-- can be confusing unless one
          > knows more about the context. For example, consider a common courtyard
          > house-- that is, a rectangular compound in which there are walls all
          > around the outside, and access limited to one (or more) door(s), but
          > open to the air in the middle. This has been common in many parts of the
          > Middle East, and many archaeological commentaries on standard house
          > plans take note of it. Then imagine a stairway leading from the
          > *interior courtyard* to the roof. If all you have is a remnant of the
          > compound consisting of the stairway and adjacent parts of the house--
          > but not the other three sides of the compound-- it might look as if the
          > stairway is on the outside exterior, i.e. public side, of the house,
          > even though it was on the inside (courtyard) side, and therefore
          > private. So here we need to know whether "exterior" means the public
          > side, or the internal courtyard side.

          I can't imagine constructing a house within a courtyard and then
          building the stair to the roof on the outside of the compound. That
          makes no sense. If such a stair existed, then it would have been inside
          the compound but outside the house.

          Best

          Jim


          --
          Jim West, ThD

          http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
          http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
        • Emmanuel Fritsch
          Thanks a lot for all your stuff. Really interesting. I am still looking for information about the lexikon used in the greek online bible
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 16, 2006
            Thanks a lot for all your stuff. Really interesting.

            I am still looking for information about the lexikon used in the greek
            online bible (www.*greek**bible*.com/).

            What are its academic accreditations ?
            How confident do you feel with it ?
            About "dia twn keramwn" which may be translated by "through the roof",
            do you have somes sources about it ?

            Thanks,

            Emmanuel.
          • Chuck Jones
            Bob, I m embarrassed to admit that the most vivid recollections I have of the external staircase/ladder are from illustrations in Sunday School literature when
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 16, 2006
              Bob,

              I'm embarrassed to admit that the most vivid recollections I have of the external staircase/ladder are from illustrations in Sunday School literature when I was a youth (and we all know how accurate that is!).

              I do think it's important to make a distinction between the courtyard homes of the wealthy and the tiny homes of merchants and craftsmen in towns. These, I understand (from Seminary, not Sunday School!) were quite small--basically one room. The stairs/ladder were outside for reasons of space, cost and construction (the flat roof served basically a patio). Also, it was not uncommon for a small room to be added on the roof to be rented out.

              So one approach is to read the story details and then imagine which sort of house Jesus is pictured as teaching in.

              Chuck

              Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:


              Bob Schacht wrote:

              > Thanks, Jim. Does this show entrance to the roof through an opening in
              > the roof for the stairs?
              >

              Nope. Just a ladder on the outside wall where some industrious looking
              woman appears to be spreading grain to dry.

              >
              > Evidence-- even archaeological evidence-- can be confusing unless one
              > knows more about the context. For example, consider a common courtyard
              > house-- that is, a rectangular compound in which there are walls all
              > around the outside, and access limited to one (or more) door(s), but
              > open to the air in the middle. This has been common in many parts of the
              > Middle East, and many archaeological commentaries on standard house
              > plans take note of it. Then imagine a stairway leading from the
              > *interior courtyard* to the roof. If all you have is a remnant of the
              > compound consisting of the stairway and adjacent parts of the house--
              > but not the other three sides of the compound-- it might look as if the
              > stairway is on the outside exterior, i.e. public side, of the house,
              > even though it was on the inside (courtyard) side, and therefore
              > private. So here we need to know whether "exterior" means the public
              > side, or the internal courtyard side.

              I can't imagine constructing a house within a courtyard and then
              building the stair to the roof on the outside of the compound. That
              makes no sense. If such a stair existed, then it would have been inside
              the compound but outside the house.

              Best

              Jim

              --
              Jim West, ThD

              http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
              http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog





              ---------------------------------
              Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • R. Steven Notley
              Gentlemen Perhaps I missed it, but I can not see that anyone responded or took note of my contribution to this discussion last week. Discussion has continued
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 16, 2006
                Gentlemen

                Perhaps I missed it, but I can not see that anyone responded or took
                note of my contribution to this discussion last week. Discussion has
                continued unabated regarding "ladders" and whether the stairs were
                inside or outside the houses.

                I answered succinctly because of lack of personal time, but also
                because the issues are not in question or difficult.

                First, there were no tiles in Galilee or anywhere in Judea prior to
                70 CE. It is universally attested that they were introduced by the
                Roman X Legion after the conquest of Jerusalem and Judea. Mention of
                tiles in most (but not all) manuscript readings of Luke 5:19 must be
                explained otherwise.

                Second, the style of houses in first century Galilee are well known
                to those who are familiar with Roman period archaeology in Judea.
                The courtyard styled houses are referred to by the term "insula
                houses." Indeed we have many such fine examples in Roman period
                Capernaum and Chorazin, including the so-called "St. Peter's house"
                in Capernaum.

                I refer you now to a brief excerpt from the Encyclopedia of
                Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land (4 vols.; Jerusalem:
                IES, 1993) 1:292, "The houses [i.e. of Capernaum] are characterized
                by large courts surrounded by small dwelling chambers. The life of
                an extended family centered around a communal court. In the courts
                were ovens, staircases for access to roofs, and only one exit to the
                street."

                Having lived in Israel for 16 years, I have visited these
                archaeological remains too many times to count.

                There were no ladders. Stairs to access the roof were always within
                the family dwelling complex. With few exceptions, homes were single
                story. Capernaum is over 650 feet below sea level and in the summer
                gets unbearably hot and humid. The stairs provided access in the
                summers for a family to sleep where it might be cooler.
                Nevertheless, as Josephus describes in the collapse of the roofs in
                Gamla when the Roman soldiers tried to use them in their escape from
                the Jewish onslaught, the roofs were not intended to bear much weight.

                Typical roofing material was what is referred to in the US as a "sod
                roof" that included larger branches, then small reeds and finally
                covered with straw and mud. Primarily, these were intended to keep
                out the weather. It is not unlikely that these had to be repaired
                annually. One can even see today in Capernaum and elsewhere the
                basalt rollers that were used to repair the roofs.

                Hope this helps.

                Blessings,
                R. Steven Notley
                Nyack College, NYC


                On Oct 16, 2006, at 8:21 AM, Chuck Jones wrote:

                > Bob,
                >
                > I'm embarrassed to admit that the most vivid recollections I have
                > of the external staircase/ladder are from illustrations in Sunday
                > School literature when I was a youth (and we all know how accurate
                > that is!).
                >
                > I do think it's important to make a distinction between the
                > courtyard homes of the wealthy and the tiny homes of merchants and
                > craftsmen in towns. These, I understand (from Seminary, not Sunday
                > School!) were quite small--basically one room. The stairs/ladder
                > were outside for reasons of space, cost and construction (the flat
                > roof served basically a patio). Also, it was not uncommon for a
                > small room to be added on the roof to be rented out.
                >
                > So one approach is to read the story details and then imagine which
                > sort of house Jesus is pictured as teaching in.
                >
                > Chuck
                >
                > Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Bob Schacht wrote:
                >
                > > Thanks, Jim. Does this show entrance to the roof through an
                > opening in
                > > the roof for the stairs?
                > >
                >
                > Nope. Just a ladder on the outside wall where some industrious looking
                > woman appears to be spreading grain to dry.
                >
                > >
                > > Evidence-- even archaeological evidence-- can be confusing unless
                > one
                > > knows more about the context. For example, consider a common
                > courtyard
                > > house-- that is, a rectangular compound in which there are walls all
                > > around the outside, and access limited to one (or more) door(s), but
                > > open to the air in the middle. This has been common in many parts
                > of the
                > > Middle East, and many archaeological commentaries on standard house
                > > plans take note of it. Then imagine a stairway leading from the
                > > *interior courtyard* to the roof. If all you have is a remnant of
                > the
                > > compound consisting of the stairway and adjacent parts of the
                > house--
                > > but not the other three sides of the compound-- it might look as
                > if the
                > > stairway is on the outside exterior, i.e. public side, of the house,
                > > even though it was on the inside (courtyard) side, and therefore
                > > private. So here we need to know whether "exterior" means the public
                > > side, or the internal courtyard side.
                >
                > I can't imagine constructing a house within a courtyard and then
                > building the stair to the roof on the outside of the compound. That
                > makes no sense. If such a stair existed, then it would have been
                > inside
                > the compound but outside the house.
                >
                > Best
                >
                > Jim
                >
                > --
                > Jim West, ThD
                >
                > http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • R. Steven Notley
                Shalom Synoptic-Listers I arrived back yesterday morning from Israel at 5:00 a.m. (in a NY snow storm) and was greeted with the hubbub over the purported Tomb
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
                  Shalom Synoptic-Listers

                  I arrived back yesterday morning from Israel at 5:00 a.m. (in a NY
                  snow storm) and was greeted with the hubbub over the purported Tomb
                  of Jesus' Family. Over the last 24 hours in my jetlagged state I
                  have had the opportunity to review the inscriptional material. It
                  was already published by L.Y. Rahmani in A Catalogue of Jewish
                  Ossuraries (Jerusalem: Israel Antiquities Authority, 1994) 222-224.

                  I have collated what I see as some of the fundamental problems with
                  the claims. As usual, the problem is that these folks do not control
                  the languages at the center of their claims.

                  Here are a few reflections, questions regarding the hubbub:

                  1. After looking at Rahmani's inscriptions, I think ossuary No. 704
                  does indeed read Yeshua bar Yosef (contra Stephen Pfann). However,
                  the collocation of these names certainly does not necessitate that
                  this is Jesus' ossuary. Indeed, even within Rahmani's own catalogue
                  there is another example of a Yeshua bar Yosef (cf. No. 9.1). The
                  limited pool of names means that the combination of Yeshua and Yosef
                  would have surfaced countless times.

                  2. While it is true that Yoseh (ossuary No. 705) is a diminutive
                  form of Yosef, I can not think of a single occasion where the NT
                  Joseph is referred to by this form either in the NT or later
                  Christian writings. Contrast the lack of the shortened form of
                  Yosef's name (i.e. YOSEH) with the diminutive form of Mary's name
                  (from MIRIAM) that does occur in the NT (i.e. MARIA). MARYA (the
                  Hebrew equivalent to the Greek NT name) appears on ossuary No. 706.
                  Rahmani even suggests that the similarity in the style of the
                  inscription of Yoseh and Marya's names suggests that they may have
                  been the parents of Yeshua and the grandparents of Yehuda son of
                  Yeshua. While speculative, it may be true. But to attempt to
                  identify this Yoseh as the NT Joseph (as done by Jacobovici et al)
                  lacks the needed connecting evidence that the NT Joseph was ever
                  called by the diminutive form YOSEH.

                  3. To my mind the most critical piece of the argument lies with
                  ossuary No. 701 which belonged to a woman and inscribed "Of Mariamne
                  [that is] Mara". [As Cameron notes, she is the "Ringo" of the names
                  in the tomb. In his analogy if you found a tomb with John, Paul and
                  George, you could speculate but not be certain it was the Beatles.
                  If you found also (the more rare name) Ringo, then the probability
                  would become almost certainty.]

                  There are two obstacles to identifying this woman as Mary Magdalene.
                  First, the NT routinely calls her MARIA or MARIAM, and never the form
                  MARIAMNE. The promoters attempt to sidestep this problem by citing a
                  4th century Gnostic text, the Acts of the Philip, in which we do have
                  a travel companion of Philip named Mariamne. There has been some
                  suggestion by Francois Bovon that she is to be identified with Mary
                  Magdalene, but my cursory glance at the the Acts of Philip indicates
                  she is to be identified with the Mary sister of Martha (from Bethany)
                  and not Mary from Magdala. Here is a snippet from the Acts of Philip
                  94: "It was she [Mariamne] that made ready the bread and salt at
                  the breaking of bread, but Martha was she that ministered to the
                  multitudes and laboured much."

                  Moreover, the inscription states that this Mariamne was also called
                  MARAH. In a real laugher which could only be conjured up in Zeit
                  Geist of our day, they have read MARAH as "Master" (i.e. the feminine
                  form of the Aramaic MAR). Thus, they are trying to reclaim (a la
                  Dan Brown) Mary's rightful place as head of the early Christian
                  movement which was taken from her by the chauvinist leadership of
                  Christianity. The charges of chauvinism in early Christianity
                  notwithstanding, the suggestion that Mary Magdalene was known as "the
                  Master" (MARAH) can not be supported by the appearance of MARAH with
                  her name on the ossuary. The feminine form of MAR (master) is
                  MARTHAH not MARAH. Instead, as Rahmani indicates the appearance
                  here of MARAH is the diminutive form of the proper name Martha (cf.
                  also Nos. 468.2 and 868). So, this Mariamne was also called by the
                  diminutive form of Martha (or MARAH). Once again, we lack a single
                  reference in the NT or any later Christian writing I know that Mary
                  Magdalene was ever called Martha (or MARAH).

                  So, it may be true that this Mariamne and Yeshua were married and
                  that they had a son named Judah, but I can find no compelling link
                  between these names and the NT figures.

                  It is worthwhile to restate that the challenge is to move beyond mere
                  speculative possibility to at least probability (if certainty
                  remains unattainable). I do not think the evidence that we have been
                  provided moves us beyond mere (and questionable) possibility.

                  As a final added note, I would point out that a similar clustering of
                  these names surfaces among the dynastic family of Hasmoneans. Of
                  course, I am not suggesting that this tomb belonged to a family
                  descended from the Maccabees. Only to draw attention to the limited
                  and popular pool of names at the time and that the collocation of
                  these names need not indicate that they are NT figures.

                  Shalom from snowy NY!

                  R. Steven Notley
                  Professor of Biblical Studies
                  Department of Biblical and Theological Studies
                  Nyack College
                  New York City





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • gentile_dave@emc.com
                  R. Steven Notley wrote: [As Cameron notes, she is the Ringo of the names in the tomb. In his analogy if you found a tomb with John, Paul and George, you
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
                    R. Steven Notley wrote:



                    [As Cameron notes, she is the "Ringo" of the names
                    in the tomb. In his analogy if you found a tomb with John, Paul and
                    George, you could speculate but not be certain it was the Beatles.
                    If you found also (the more rare name) Ringo, then the probability
                    would become almost certainty.]



                    And later:



                    It is worthwhile to restate that the challenge is to move beyond mere
                    speculative possibility to at least probability (if certainty
                    remains unattainable).



                    Dave:



                    The first quote is a perfect example of an application of the Bayesian
                    formula, and the second is the general goal of Bayesian probability.



                    Thus it occurs to me that this might be an interesting way to try out
                    Bayesian statistics in this area. Of course much would have to be based
                    on knowledgeable estimates, so I think it would be still be a subjective
                    answer (in the sense that different people would get different answers).
                    Things like the frequency of Yeshua bar Yosef, and the number of tombs
                    from the period, and the chances that the family of Jesus is in one of
                    them, etc. would all need estimates.



                    Then, since Bayesian statistical results depend on the information
                    available, and since different individuals have different information to
                    draw on, consensus estimates are likely to lead to a better result than
                    individual estimates. Of course that requires an investment of time, and
                    I'm not sure how much interest this question has for those here.



                    But if nothing else the example shows at least one NT scholar working in
                    an almost explicit Bayesian fashion.



                    Dave



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.