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Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: A synoptic idea

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  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: Synoptic In Response To: Dave Gentile On: Sayings Sources, Real and Otherwise From: Bruce Among much else of interest in his latest contribution, Dave had
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 13, 2006
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      To: Synoptic
      In Response To: Dave Gentile
      On: Sayings Sources, Real and Otherwise
      From: Bruce

      Among much else of interest in his latest contribution, Dave had remarked,
      "But a successfully forged early saying source and a real early saying
      source will probably have much in common, including Papias' testimony about
      them, so that can't be used to separate the ideas."

      I merely want to say that I think this is a very important principle. Too
      many things could correspond to certain bits of medium early external
      testimony for complete certainty, and in any case, our ability to detect
      forgeries at this distance is necessarily somewhat impaired. Any hypothesis
      compatible with the words of Papias (wherever the boundary between them and
      Eusebius's comments may lie, and whatever exactly they mean, and ignoring
      the Johannine bias of Papias, and assuming that Papias in this remark has a
      probity which is conspicuously missing from what we know of his own
      writings) is probably the better for it, other things being equal. But it is
      still worthwhile to be reminded that the category of hypotheses which could
      be judged compatible with the words of Papias is a somewhat wide one.

      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts at Amherst

      [The name "Papias" reminds me that in the early China field, we have a
      conspicuous case of a major court historian, a man of learning or anyway of
      wide acquaintance in the world of texts, who showed incredible naivete in
      evaluating recent forgeries as genuine productions of antiquity, and whose
      own editing of earlier texts for inclusion in his book ranged from
      amateurish to downright clumsy. He had an accepting mind and a trembling
      hand].
    • Emmanuel Fritsch
      Hello, Arguing about technical details in Luke on a french forum, we deeply disagree about keramon in Luke 5:19. It has been said that tiles were not
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 11, 2006
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        Hello,

        Arguing about technical details in Luke on a french forum, we deeply
        disagree about "keramon" in Luke 5:19. It has been said that "tiles"
        were not present in Syria at the beginning of Ist century, so that it
        constitutes an error of Luke.

        Since I was not convinced, I said it, and I have been sharply accused
        for being a defender of inerrancy.
        Hence I would like to look around the question.

        Even if "tiles" for "keramon" is the mainstream translation, in french,
        english, german, we have other translation for this "keramon". Segond
        translate "par une ouverture du toit".

        Bailly, the standard greek-french dictionnary, proposes "clay".
        Greek online bible (http://www.greekbible.com) proposes :
        > 1) clay, potter's earth
        > 2) anything made of clay, earthen ware
        > 3) a roofing tile
        > 3a) the roof itself
        > 3b) the phrase "through the roof", means through the door in the
        > roof to which a ladder or stairway led up from the street
        > (according to the Rabbis distinguish two ways of entering
        > a house, "the way through the door" and "the way through
        > the roof". For Synonyms see entry 5858

        I would like to know :
        - what is the source for this definition ? (and for the whole lexicon of
        greek online bible)
        - are there any other stuff about the translation of "keramon" I should
        have looked at ?
        - are there any other stuff about "keramon" in Luke ?

        Thanks in advance,

        a+
        manu
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