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Re: [Synoptic-L] LP book

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  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: Synoptic In Response To: Jeffrey Gibson On: Lord s Prayer Outline From: Bruce Most LP questions would fit into at least one of the proposed chapter titles.
    Message 1 of 3 , May 31 7:42 PM
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      To: Synoptic
      In Response To: Jeffrey Gibson
      On: Lord's Prayer Outline
      From: Bruce

      Most LP questions would fit into at least one of the proposed chapter
      titles. If I have a comment, it would be on the order of those topics (and
      perhaps their extension into later times). Jeffrey probably has his own
      connective thread in mind, but coming at it from the historical point of
      view, I could readily envision this order of material:

      1. Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
      Relationship. The basic data set; what is there to work with? I would not
      exclude hints in Mark either. Contrast between the public prayers of the
      Pharisees and what by implication "Jesus" recommends would seem to belong
      here, as also the private prayers of Jesus on his own behalf, which are
      evidently of a different type (but it helps to establish that there are
      different types). References to sufficiency unto the day, as in the Sending
      of the Twelve would seem to relate to the "daily" requirements which are
      addressed in LP. Stuff like that, to contrast with and also to enrich the LP
      as a recommendation (to disciples) of Jesus. The purpose of this chapter is
      to assemble material for a later determination: which of these forms is
      ancestral to which of the others? Where to put that determination would be,
      to me, the hard question in the designing of the book. See my best
      spontaneous suggestion in #4-5 below. But perhaps it should be earlier, that
      is, right here at the beginning.

      2. [Background]. How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its
      formal and thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers). This
      might be called the remote origin question. (This might also be a first and
      introductory chapter).

      3. The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?). This might
      be called the proximate origin question.

      4. The Nature of the Prayer. Under this general topic we might combine, in
      this or another order: (a) The Meaning of the Petitions, preparing for (b)
      The Unity of the Prayer, the thesis of Goulder, and (c) The Horizon of the
      Prayer as Eschatological. It seems hard to exclude Synoptic considerations
      here, among them the view of Farrer: that despite first appearances, the
      Lukan version is later than the Matthean, and derivative from it.

      5. The Prayer in Changing Synoptic Context. Function of precursor hints in
      Mark; function in context of Matthew and Luke; function in Didache; the
      question of John. This merges with the preceding one. But given a previous
      determination which of our versions is primary to the rest, it would then be
      nice to see what role those versions have in their respective contexts.

      6. The Prayer in the Early Church. So much for the documentary situation; it
      would be interesting (to me) to now cite the evidence for the LP in early
      Church practice, up to a certain point, probably the end of the 1c if John
      and the Didache are to be included. Local variations? Relation to other
      observances thought to have been instituted by Jesus?

      7. Other Practices Instituted by Jesus. Concluding wider view of this type
      of material in the Synoptics and cognate sources. Relation to early hymns,
      and so on. Relation with baptism, with which it might be thought to be in
      complementation.

      Not to make work for anybody, but I would certainly be among those lined up
      to buy the book. Any hints meanwhile as to conclusions would be much
      appreciated by the undersigned.

      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts
    • Weaks, Joe
      Jeffrey, When you say Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) , I am guessing you would include the Traditional Version , the one said
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 1, 2006
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        Jeffrey,
        When you say "Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache)", I am guessing you would include the "Traditional Version", the one said in ecclesiological settings today that doesn't appear in that form in any scripture. How did it come to be, etc.

        Joe Weaks


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Jeffrey B. Gibson
        Sent: Wed 5/31/2006 5:32 PM
        To: Crosstalk2
        Cc: Synoptic@yahoo; bibexegesis; Bible-Research; biblical-studies
        Subject: [Synoptic-L] LP book

        With apologies for cross posting.

        I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
        for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.

        I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
        that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
        I will need to deal with.

        But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
        there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
        not neglect given the aim of the book .

        Yours,

        Jeffrey

        ******
        Outline

        Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
        Relationship

        The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)

        The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)

        How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
        thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)

        The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
        Eschatological Prayer)

        The Meaning of the Petitions

        The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

        ******
        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...





        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-l
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Karel Hanhart
        Jeffrey, You undoubtdly have the van de Sandt/Flusser s comment on the Lord s Prayer on your list. The Didache, Its Jewish Sources and its Place in Early
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 3, 2006
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          Jeffrey,

          You undoubtdly have the 'van de Sandt/Flusser's comment on the Lord's Prayer
          on your list. "The Didache, Its Jewish Sources and its Place in Early
          Judaism and Chrisrianity, (2002) 293-96.

          as always your,

          Karel Hanhart



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Weaks, Joe" <j.weaks@...>
          To: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>; <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:18 PM
          Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] LP book


          > Jeffrey,
          > When you say "Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the
          > Didache)", I am guessing you would include the "Traditional Version", the
          > one said in ecclesiological settings today that doesn't appear in that
          > form in any scripture. How did it come to be, etc.
          >
          > Joe Weaks
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Jeffrey B. Gibson
          > Sent: Wed 5/31/2006 5:32 PM
          > To: Crosstalk2
          > Cc: Synoptic@yahoo; bibexegesis; Bible-Research; biblical-studies
          > Subject: [Synoptic-L] LP book
          >
          > With apologies for cross posting.
          >
          > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
          > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
          >
          > I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
          > that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
          > I will need to deal with.
          >
          > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
          > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
          > not neglect given the aim of the book .
          >
          > Yours,
          >
          > Jeffrey
          >
          > ******
          > Outline
          >
          > Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
          > Relationship
          >
          > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
          >
          > The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
          >
          > How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
          > thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
          >
          > The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
          > Eschatological Prayer)
          >
          > The Meaning of the Petitions
          >
          > The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
          >
          > ******
          > --
          > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          > Chicago, Illinois
          > e-mail jgibson000@...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-l
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-l
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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