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RE: [Synoptic-L] A case for pMark

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  • David Inglis
    I have stayed out of this as long as I could, but now feel obliged to reply (so please everyone let me know to keep quiet in the future if I am out of line). I
    Message 1 of 44 , Jan 4, 2013
      I have stayed out of this as long as I could, but now feel obliged to reply (so please everyone let me know to keep quiet in the future if I am out of line). I find this kind of ad hominem attack very distasteful, as it suggests that unless you have a specific list of qualifications and/or experience in a particular field then there is nothing you can bring to the table that has any value, and hence there is no point in even examining your work. To me this is blatantly ridiculous, since it is often the ‘out of the box’ thinking that is exactly what is needed to break a ‘log jam,’ and very often it is ONLY those people outside the mainstream (who may well have non-traditional qualifications and/or experience) who can advance the thinking in any particular field. Therefore, rather than dismiss out of hand someone who is not able to check all the boxes on any particular ‘qualification list,’ I think the only right and proper way to go is to examine the argument itself. If the argument has no merit, then I’m sure that anyone with all the ‘required qualifications’ will be easily able to point this out.

      David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA

      From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Godwin
      Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 8:48 AM
      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] A case for pMark

      Well, it appears everyone now is talking about the Greek language, not Hebrew. So a NT professor was present: that doesn't indicate what you think. I did not say, nor do I think, you are incompetent, but rather just as not much so as you think and claim to be. So you pass off critical examination as patronizing and annoying? That tells more about you than anything else.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: lmbarre@... <mailto:lmbarre%40gmail.com>
      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Synoptic%40yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 1:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] A case for pMark


      Why the interrogation? I majored in Hebrew Language and Literature at
      Vanderbilt and minored in New Testament Literature. I was successfully
      awarded a doctorate by my dissertation committee that included the New
      Testament professor Daniel Patte. I also received an A- from Gerd Luedemann
      for the work I submitted to him on 1Timothy. Why don't you ask them about
      my competency? I shall not answer any more of your unnecessary questions.
      Please go pick on somebody else. You waste my time.

      If you think I am incompetent, then let the list rip me apart and so you
      shall be gratified that a poser has been exposed and rightfully humiliated.
      Your interrogation is patronizing and frankly annoying. I should hope that
      you do not do this to everyone who seeks to participate in this list's

      LM Barré

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • E Bruce Brooks
      To: Synoptic In Response To: L M Barré On: pMark From: Bruce LMB: I have to say that I think you err not to conclude that we have in euthus and marker of the
      Message 44 of 44 , Jan 7, 2013
        To: Synoptic
        In Response To: L M Barré
        On: pMark
        From: Bruce

        LMB: I have to say that I think you err not to conclude that we have in
        euthus and marker of the Markan redaction.

        EBB: Euthus is characteristic of Mark, but whether of redaction (editing of
        prior material) or composition (authorial material) I think we cannot say.
        There is also the question, not separately examined, of whether euthus is
        equally typical of the later material in Mark. The answer according to my
        own investigation is: not as much so. But there are also themes and modes in
        what I take to be original mark where euthus (immediacy in narrative) would
        not apply in any case, and if late Mark is turning to those questions (eg,
        how soon will the Second Coming be), then the style change is simply an
        artifact of the topic change. The continuing authorship or proprietorship of
        the single author (call him Mark or whatever) is not precluded.

        LMB: . So also is the much repeated "amazement" motif, which I take as
        another indicator of Markan redaction.

        EBB: Again, I sort of agree, and have used that test myself, following Dwyer
        1996 (though I think it is possible to refine his data set). But again,
        there are types of material in Mark that do not invite that motif. It would
        take more precision to make "amazement" an indicator of Markan vs
        post-Markan material.

        LMB: but also with typical repetition (another Markan stylistic marker), the
        thrice predicted passion, death and resurrection.

        EBB: I agree with Yarbro Collins that the triplets (and I would add,
        including the Passion Predictions) are late in Mark. I would not call them
        non-Markan, but they are a device of style which occurred to the late Mark,
        and were not present in the relatively straightforward early Mark.

        LMB: Let me here add that I think that the ending of Mark is indeed lost and
        that the current ending in 16:8 is not deliberate. The reason why it is
        noted that the women said nothing, is to prepare for the Great Astonishment,
        that Jesus was alive. This would be all the more shocking because they were
        unaware of the empty tomb "information" due to the women's silence.

        EBB: I agree that 16:8 was not meant to be the end of Mark, and that our
        text is artificially abbreviated. Matthew's supplied ending owes details to
        other texts, and does not come from his seeing a more complete version of
        Mark (there was none in his time), but is a good normal guess at what the
        ending might have contained, at least on the circumstantial level.

        LMB: In the logic of the story of Mark's redaction, the predicted appearance
        in Galilee is not particularly freighted. Where else would they go but home?
        Where more appropriate for Jesus to meet up with them?

        EBB: I think weight must be given to the pair of interpolations I mentioned
        earlier: 14:28 and 16:7. These predict that the disciples will see Jesus in
        Galilee. What if the story had continued without those predictions?
        Evidently in the way that the insertions predict: they would see Jesus in
        Galilee. What then do the predictions add? Simply this: Jesus's
        foreknowledge of that event. Without that element, Jesus's appearance would
        have been a surprise, not only to the disciples, but to Jesus himself. The
        prediction puts him back in control, has him fully anticipating, and thus
        fully accepting, the end of his life and its sequel.


        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
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