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Minimal and Maximal pMark

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  • lmbarre@gmail.com
    I think some further clarification would be helpful. You introduced pMark Without defining it. Ron, I minimal demarcation of pMark would be the context for
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 3, 2013
      I think some further clarification would be helpful. You introduced "pMark"
      Without defining it.

      Ron,

      I minimal demarcation of pMark would be the context for the alleged Markan
      insertions.
      2:18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting ; and they came and
      said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees
      fast, but your disciples do not fast ?" 19 And Jesus said to them, 21 "No
      one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment ; otherwise the patch
      pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. 22 "No
      one puts new wine into old wineskins ; otherwise the wine will burst the
      skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine
      into fresh wineskins."
      6:7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave
      them authority over the unclean spirits ; 8 and He instructed them that they
      should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff -no bread, no bag
      no money in their belt - 9 but to wear sandals ; and He added, "Do not put
      on two tunics." 10 And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay
      there until you leave town. 11 "Any place that does not receive you or
      listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of
      your feet for a testimony against them." 12 They went out and preached that
      men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were
      anointing with oil many sick people and healing them. 30 The apostles
      gathered together with Jesus ; and they reported to Him all that they had
      done and taught. 31 And He said to them, "Come away by yourselves to a
      secluded place and rest a while."
      3:20 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that
      they could not even eat a meal. 21 When His own people heard of this, they
      went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His
      senses." 31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside
      they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and
      they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking
      for You." 33 Answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers ?"
      34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold My
      mother and My brothers ! 35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My
      brother and sister and mother."
      9:33 They came to Capernaum ; and when He was in the house, He began to
      question them, "What were you discussing on the way ?" 34 But they kept
      silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was
      the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If
      anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." 36
      Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said
      to them, 37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me;
      and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me." 42
      Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be
      better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been
      cast into the sea.
      14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread were two days away ; and the
      chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to seize Him by stealth and
      kill Him; 2 for they were saying, "Not during the festival, otherwise there
      might be a riot of the people." 14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, who was one of
      the twelve, went off to the chief priests in order to betray Him to them. 11
      They were glad when they heard this, and promised to give him money. And he
      began seeking how to betray Him at an opportune time.14:55
      Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain testimony
      against Jesus to put Him to death, and they were not finding any. 56 For
      many were giving false testimony against Him, but their testimony was not
      consistent. 60 The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned
      Jesus, saying, "Do You not answer ? What is it that these men are testifying
      against You?" 61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high
      priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son
      of the Blessed One?" 62 And Jesus said, "I am ; and you shall see THE SON OF
      MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN
      " 63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we
      have of witnesses ? 64 "You have heard the blasphemy ; how does it seem to
      you?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. 65 Some began to
      spit at Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to
      say to Him, "Prophesy !" And the officers received Him with slaps in the
      face.
      15:16 The soldiers took Him away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium),
      and they called together the whole Roman cohort. 17 They dressed Him up in
      purple, and after twisting a crown of thorns, they put it on Him; 18 and
      they began to acclaim Him, "Hail, King of the Jews !" 19 They kept beating
      His head with a reed, and spitting on Him, and kneeling and bowing before
      Him. 20 After they had mocked Him, they took the purple robe off Him and put
      His own garments on Him. And they led Him out to crucify Him.
      25 It was the third hour when they crucified Him. 26 The inscription of the
      charge against Him read, "THE KING OF THE JEWS." 27 They crucified two
      robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 34 At the ninth hour
      Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI ?" which is
      translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" 35 When some of the
      bystanders heard it, they began saying, "Behold, He is calling for Elijah."
      36 Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and
      gave Him a drink, [But the rest said], "Let us see whether Elijah will come
      to take Him down." 37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last.
      39 When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way
      He breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was a son of a god!"
      From here, I would eliminate from pMark all that material which is
      dissimilar from the portrayal of Jesus in the pre-Markan PN. Also, I would
      eliminate provisionally all those pericopae that contain the Markan motifs
      of "immediately" and "amazement" over Jesus. I would also eliminate those
      pericopae that employ the literary technique of repetition. So it is really
      the convergence of several criteria together that work toward a demarcation
      of pMark from Mark. Appling these criteria together, I make my provisional
      pMark to be the following material:

      1:2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet : "BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER
      AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY ; 3 THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE
      WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.' "

      4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of
      repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 6 John was clothed with camel's hair
      and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild
      honey. 7 And he was preaching, and saying, "After me One is coming who is
      mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His
      sandals.
      Jesus Preaches in Galilee

      14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee,
      preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the
      kingdom of God is at hand."

      32 When evening came, after the sun had set, they began bringing to Him all
      who were ill and those who were demon-possessed. 33 And the whole city had
      gathered at the door. 34 And He healed many who were ill with various
      diseases, and cast out many demons ; and He was not permitting the demons to
      speak, because they knew who He was. 35 In the early morning, while it was
      still dark, Jesus got up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place,
      and was praying there. 36 Simon and his companions searched for Him; 37 they
      found Him, and said to Him, "Everyone Is looking for You." 38 He said to
      them, "Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, so that I may preach
      there also ; for that is what I came for." 39 And He went into their
      synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.

      2:15 And it happened that He was reclining at the table in his house, and
      many tax collectors and sinners were dining with Jesus and His disciples ;
      for there were many of them, and they were following Him. 16 When the
      scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax
      collectors, they said to His disciples, "Why is He eating and drinking with
      tax collectors and sinners ?" 17 And hearing this, Jesus asid to them, "It
      Is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick ;
      I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

      18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting ; and they came and said
      to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast,
      but Your disciples do not fast ?" 19 And Jesus said to them, 21 "No one sews
      a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment ; otherwise the patch pulls away
      from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. 22 "No one puts new
      wine into old wineskins ; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the
      wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh
      wineskins."

      Question of the Sabbath

      23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the
      Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the
      heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, "Look, why are they
      doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath ?" 25 And He said to them, "Have you
      never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions
      became hungry ; 26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar
      the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for
      anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with
      him?" 27 Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for
      the Sabbath.

      The Twelve Are Chosen

      3:13 And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself
      wanted, and they came to Him. 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would
      be with Him and that He could send them out to preach, 15 and to have
      authority to cast out the demons. 16 And He appointed the twelve : Simon (to
      whom He gave the name Peter ), 17 and James, the son of Zebedee, and John
      the brother of James (to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, "Sons
      of Thunder "); 18 and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and
      Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot ;
      19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.
      20 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that
      they could not even eat a meal. 21 When His own people heard of this, they
      went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His
      senses. 31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside
      they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and
      they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking
      for You." 33 Answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers ?"
      34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold My
      mother and My brothers ! 35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My
      brother and sister and mother.

      21 And He was saying to them, "A lamp is not brought to be put under a
      basket, is it, or under a bed ? Is it not brought to be put on the lampstand
      22 "For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been
      secret, but that it would come to light. 23 "If anyone has ears to hear,
      let him hear."
      24 And He was saying to them, "Take care what you listen to. By your
      standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you
      besides. 25 "For whoever has, to him more shall be given ; and whoever does
      not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."
      Parable of the Mustard Seed

      30 And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable
      shall we present it? 31 "It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon
      the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil, 32
      yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden
      plants and forms large branches ; so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR can NEST
      UNDER ITS SHADE." 33 With many such parables He was speaking the word to
      them, so far as they were able to hear it; 34 and He did not speak to them
      without a parable ; but He was explaining everything privately to His own
      disciples.

      The Twelve Sent Out

      3:17 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and
      gave them authority over the unclean spirits ; 8 and He instructed them that
      they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff -no bread,
      no bag, no money in their belt - 9 but to wear sandals ; and He added, "Do
      not put on two tunics." 10 And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house,
      stay there until you leave town. 11 "Any place that does not receive you or
      listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of
      your feet for a testimony against them." 12 They went out and preached that
      men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were
      anointing with oil many sick people and healing them. 30 The apostles
      gathered together with Jesus ; and they reported to Him all that they had
      done and taught. 31 And He said to them, "Come away by yourselves to a
      secluded place and rest a while."

      Followers of Tradition

      7:1 The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had
      come from Jerusalem, 2 and had seen that some of His disciples were eating
      their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and
      all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus
      observing the traditions of the elders ; 4 and when they come from the
      market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are
      many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the
      washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) 5 The Pharisees and the
      scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the
      tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands ?" 6 And He
      said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is
      written : 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR
      AWAY FROM ME. 7 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE
      PRECEPTS OF MEN.' 8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the
      tradition of men." 9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting
      aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses
      said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER '; and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF
      FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH '; 11 but you say, 'If a man says to
      his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban
      (that is to say, given to God),' 12 you no longer permit him to do anything
      for his father or his mother ; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your
      tradition which you have handed down ; and you do many things such as that."

      The Heart of Man

      14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, "Listen
      to Me, all of you, and understand : 15 there is nothing outside the man
      which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out
      of the man are what defile the man. 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him
      hear."

      17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples
      questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He said to them, "Are you so
      lacking in understanding also ? Do you not understand that whatever goes
      into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into
      his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated ?" (Thus He declared all
      foods clean.) 20 And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man,
      that is what defiles the man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men,
      proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22
      deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy ,
      slander, pride and foolishness. 23 "All these evil things proceed from
      within and defile the man."

      8:11 The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a
      sign from heaven, to test Him. 12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said,
      Why does this generation seek for a sign ? Truly I say to you, no sign will
      be given to this generation."
      22 And they came to Bethsaida. And they brought a blind man to Jesus and
      implored Him to touch him. 23 Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought
      him out of the village ; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands
      on him, He asked him, "Do you see anything ?" 24 And he looked up and said,
      I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around." 25 Then again He laid
      His hands on his eyes ; and he looked intently and was restored, and began
      to see everything clearly. 26 And He sent him to his home, saying, "Do not
      even enter the village"

      Peter's Confession of Christ

      27 Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea
      Philippi ; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, "Who
      do people say that I am ?" 28 They told Him, saying, "John the Baptist ; and
      others say Elijah ; but others, one of the prophets." 29 And He continued by
      questioning them, "But who do you say that I am ?" Peter answered and said
      to Him, "You are the Christ." 30 And He warned them to tell no one about Him

      9:33 They came to Capernaum ; and when He was in the house, He began to
      question them, "What were you discussing on the way?" 34 But they kept
      silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was
      the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If
      anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
      10:1 Getting up, He went from there to the region of Judea and beyond the
      Jordan ; crowds gathered around Him again, and, according to His custom, He
      once more began to teach them. 2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing
      Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a
      wife. 3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?" 4
      They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND
      her AWAY." 5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he
      wrote you this commandment. 6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE
      THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7 "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND
      MOTHER, 8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH ; so they are no longer two,
      but one flesh. 9 "What therefore God has joined together, let no man
      separate."
      Jesus Blesses Little Children
      13 And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but
      the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and
      said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for
      the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 "Truly I say to you, whoever
      does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
      16 And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands on
      them.
      The Rich Young Ruler
      17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before
      Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life ?
      18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good ? No one is good except
      God alone. 19 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT
      ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR
      YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.' " 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all
      these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him
      and said to him, "One thing you lack : go and sell all you possess and give
      to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven ; and come, follow Me." 22
      But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was
      one who owned much property.
      Jesus enters Jerusalem and drives out the money changers
      11:15 Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to
      drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned
      the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling
      doves ; 16 and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the
      temple. 17 And He began to teach and say to them, "Is it not written, 'MY
      HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS '? But you have
      made it a ROBBERS' DEN." 18 The chief priests and the scribes heard this,
      and began seeking how to destroy Him. 19 When evening came, they would go
      out of the city.
      Jesus' Authority Questioned
      27 They came again to Jerusalem. And as He was walking in the temple, the
      chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to Him, 28 and began
      saying to Him, "By what authority are You doing these things, or who gave
      You this authority to do these things ?" 29 And Jesus said to them, "I will
      ask you one question, and you answer Me, and then I will tell you by what
      authority I do these things. 30 "Was the baptism of John from heaven, or
      from men ? Answer Me." 31 They began reasoning among themselves, saying, "If
      we say, 'From heaven,' He will say, 'Then why did you not believe him?' 32
      But shall we say, 'From men '?"-they were afraid of the people, for everyone
      considered John to have been a real prophet. 33 Answering Jesus, they said,
      We do not know." And Jesus said to them, "Nor will I tell you by what
      authority I do these things."
      Jesus Answers the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes
      12:13 Then they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Him in order to
      trap Him in a statement. 14 They came and said to Him, "Teacher, we know
      that You are truthful and defer to no one ; for You are not partial to any,
      but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar,
      or not? 15 "Shall we pay or shall we not pay ?" But He, knowing their
      hypocrisy, said to them, "Why are you testing Me? Bring Me a denarius to
      look at." 16 They brought one. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and
      inscription is this ?" And they said to Him, "Caesar's." 17 And Jesus said
      to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the
      things that are God's."
      18 Some Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection ) came to Jesus,
      and began questioning Him, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A
      MAN'S BROTHER DIES and leaves behind a wife AND LEAVES NO CHILD, HIS BROTHER
      SHOULD MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER. 20 "There were
      seven brothers ; and the first took a wife, and died leaving no children. 21
      "The second one married her, and died leaving behind no children ; and the
      third likewise ; 22 and so all seven left no children. Last of all the woman
      died also. 23 "In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one's wife
      will she be? For all seven had married her." 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this
      not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures
      or the power of God ? 25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither
      marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 "But
      regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book
      of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him,
      saying, 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob
      '? 27 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living ; you are greatly
      mistaken."
      28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He
      had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all
      ?" 29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL ! THE LORD OUR GOD
      IS ONE LORD ; 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART,
      AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
      31 "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is
      no other commandment greater than these." 32 The scribe said to Him, "Right,
      Teacher ; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE
      BESIDES HIM; 33 AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE
      UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS
      HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 When
      Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not
      far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him
      any more questions.
      35 And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the
      scribes say that the Christ is the son of David ? 36 "David himself said in
      the Holy Spirit, 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I
      PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET."' 37 "David himself calls Him 'Lord ';
      so in what sense is He his son ?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to
      Him. 38 In His teaching He was saying : "Beware of the scribes who like to
      walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market
      places, 39 and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets
      40 who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers
      these will receive greater condemnation."
      The Widow's Mite
      41 And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people
      were putting money into the treasury ; and many rich people were putting in
      large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which
      amount to a cent. 43 Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I
      say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the
      treasury ; 44 for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her
      poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.
      The Passion Narrative
      14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread were two days away ; and the
      chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to seize Him by stealth and
      kill Him; 2 for they were saying, "Not during the festival, otherwise there
      might be a riot of the people."
      10 Then Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went off to the chief
      priests in order to betray Him to them. 11 They were glad when they heard
      this, and promised to give him money. And he began seeking how to betray Him
      at an opportune time.

      [No pMark episode of arrest]

      53 They led Jesus away to the high priest ; and all the chief priests and
      the elders and the scribes gathered together.

      Jesus before His Accusers

      55 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain
      testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, and they were not finding any.
      56 For many were giving false testimony against Him, but their testimony was
      not consistent.
      60 The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying,
      Do You not answer ? What is it that these men are testifying against You?"
      61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest questioned
      and said to Him, "Are You the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62 And
      Jesus said, "I am ; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT
      HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

      63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have
      of witnesses ? 64 "You have heard the blasphemy ; how does it seem to you?"
      And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. 65 Some began to spit
      at Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say
      to Him, "Prophesy !" And the officers received Him with slaps in the face.

      Jesus Is Mocked

      16 The soldiers took Him away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium ),
      and they called together the whole Roman cohort. 17 They dressed Him up in
      purple, and after twisting a crown of thorns, they put it on Him; 18 and
      they began to acclaim Him, "Hail, King of the Jews !" 19 They kept beating
      His head with a reed, and spitting on Him, and kneeling and bowing before
      Him. 20 After they had mocked Him, they took the purple robe off Him and put
      His own garments on Him. And they led Him out to crucify Him. 21 They
      pressed into service a passer-by coming from the country, Simon of Cyrene
      (the father of Alexander and Rufus ), to bear His cross.

      The Crucifixion

      22 Then they brought Him to the place Golgotha, which is translated, Place
      of a Skull. 23 They tried to give Him wine mixed with myrrh ; but He did not
      take it. 24 And they crucified Him, and divided up His garments among
      themselves, casting lots for them to decide what each man should take.

      25 It was the third hour when they crucified Him. 26 The inscription of the
      charge against Him read, "THE KING OF THE JEWS." 27 They crucified two
      robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 28 The chief priests
      were mocking Him among themselves and saying, "He delivered others ; He
      cannot deliver Himself. 32 "Let this Messiah, the King of Israel, now come
      down from the cross, so that we may see and believe !"

      34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA
      SABACHTHANI ?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN
      ME?" 35 When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, "Behold, He
      is calling for Elijah." 36 Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine,
      put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, [but the rest said], "Let us see
      whether Elijah will come to take Him down." 37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry,
      and breathed His last. 39 When the centurion, who was standing right in
      front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was
      a son of a god."

      ***
      Of course, all this is provisional until I can and execute a proper exegesis
      of the Mark.
      At this point, I see the compositional stages and their approximate datings
      as follows
      - an oral eye-witness account by a member of the Roman soldiers who arrested
      and accompanied Jesus from his arrest, trial before the Sanhedrin and until
      his death and reported to the author of PN (30CE).
      - The composition of the PN by a member of a guild of Roman playwrights who
      was familiar with Aristotle's "Poetics." It is tempting to cherry pick the
      author as Seneca the Younger, but it would be some of the Roman literati who
      spoke Latin and and also wrote Greek. The most pressing time to compose and
      circulate and interpretation of what Jesus was not and what he was would be
      most appropriate shortly after Jesus crucifixion in c. 30 CE.
      - pMark then took up the PN and provided a "background" for it with an
      collection of traditions about Jesus' itinerant ministry and in effect
      created the first "Gospel," as an aretalogy. pMark's portrayal was
      consistent with the perspective of the pre-Markan PN. Jesus is portrayed as
      a theios aner and in terms of a Greco-Roman, Gentile perspective, addressed
      to Romans and especially Hellenistic Jews. This composition was created
      sometime between 30CE and c. 70 CE, the probable dating of the final form of
      the Gospel of Mark.
      - A Markan redaction that "Christianized" the aretalogy with a major
      expansion of pMark as a document in service of preaching this Christianized
      version to Gentiles in the wake of Paul's mission to the Gentiles. That
      Mark is to be placed in this historical context is indicated in one place by
      the insertion of the anointing at Bethany where it states that the woman
      would be remembered "whenever the Gospel ins preached to the entire world
      (Mark 14:9)." So Mark's major revision of pMark is to be dated to sometime
      near the destruction of Jerusalem, either shortly before or after this event
      thus (c. 70 CE). We also have in another insertion in 9:41 of the mature
      concept of "the followers of Christ."
      But again, as I say, these conclusions are provisional and must await and
      thorough investigation of the topic of the composition and redaction of the
      Gospel of Mark.
      There is one interesting situation with regard to the a comparison of the
      Matthean and Markan version of the PN that may have an important bearing on
      the dating of pMark. In Mark we read:
      15:36 Then someone ran, filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a stick,
      and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Leave him alone! Let’s see if Elijah
      will come to take him down!”
      But in Matthew, we read:
      27:48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge, filled it with sour wine
      put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink. 27:49 *But the rest said*,
      “Leave him alone! Let’s see if Elijah will come to save him.”
      Here, Matthew's version makes the most sense as the Markan version has the
      drink getter" speaking to himself. This might be resolved on a
      text-critical basis. I would have to check this. But the variation does
      not give the impression that Matthew is here correcting Mark. Rather, it
      may be that Matthew and Mark are working from a common Vorlage, suggesting a
      stage of composition prior to pMark. Thus we might detect PN--> PN
      Vorlage--> pMark-->Mark. So we are dealing with a total time period from
      between 30 CE and c. 70 CE. All stages of compostion seem to share a
      composition directed specifically at a Roman audience, at first directed to
      Roman literati without Christian evangelizing but then in Mark to
      Hellenistic Jews with a Roman citizenship, like Paul. Hence, the Latin
      cognates in Mark are distributed in all stages of the composition.
      The Latin words in Mark are census (κῆνσος, “poll tax,” 12:14), centurio
      (κεντυρίων, “centurion,” 15:39, 44, 45), denarius (δηνάριον, a Roman coin,
      12:15), legio (λεγιών, “legion,” 5:9, 15), modius (μόδιος, “peck measure,”
      4:21), praetorium (πραιτώριον, “governor’s official residence,” 15:16),
      quadrans (κοδράντης, a Roman coin, 12:42),sextarius (ξέστης, quart measure,
      “pitcher,” 7:4), speculator (σπεκουλάτωρ, “executioner,” 6:27), and
      flagellum (φραγελλόω, “to flog,” 15:15).
      Smith, 58, gives a summary list of such Latinisms: iter facere (ὁδὸν ποιεῖν,
      “to make one’s way,” 2:23); consilium dederunt (συμβούλιον ἐδίδουν, “to give
      counsel,” 3:6);hoc EST (ὅ ἐστιν, “that is,” 3:17; 7:11, 34; 12:42; 15:16,
      42); satis facere (ἱκανὸν ποιῆσαι, “to satisfy,” 15:15); genua ponentes
      (15:19, τιθέντες τὰ γόνατα, “bending the knees”). Except for ὅ ἐστιν, these
      occur only in Mark and not elsewhere in the NT or LXX.
      Both pMark and Mark seem to directed to a Roman audience residing in Rome
      itself. PN, however, makes best sense to be directed to local Romans who
      were aware of the strange case of Jesus of Narzareth and written to address
      the local buzz about his case. As Luke puts it:
      24:18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him,49 “Are you the only
      visitor to Jerusalem who doesn’t know50 the things that have happened
      there51 in these days?”
      LM Barré
      The context within your first posting in this thread
      Indicates that you are referring to a proto-Mark and not just an early
      Passion narrative. Could you give us a rough idea of when you think pMark
      Was written, and when you think canonical Mark was written? Have you been
      Able to verify that the cut-down narrative of pMark makes sense as an
      Independent document? Are its theology and its attitude to the Jew/Gentile
      Divide distinguishable from those of the supposed redactional insertions?





      -------Original Message-------

      From: Ronald Price
      Date: 01/03/13 02:39:22
      To: Synoptic-L
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] A case for pMark


      LM Barre wrote:

      > One example of redactional insertion would be almost sufficient to support
      > the pMark thesis, I have offered eight examples besides other additions to
      > the PN.
      >
      > ..... pMark itself is only solidly defined as those texts which form the
      > context of the alleged additions.

      LM,

      I think some further clarification would be helpful. You introduced "pMark"
      without defining it. The context within your first posting in this thread
      indicates that you are referring to a proto-Mark and not just an early
      passion narrative. Could you give us a rough idea of when you think pMark
      was written, and when you think canonical Mark was written? Have you been
      able to verify that the cut-down narrative of pMark makes sense as an
      independent document? Are its theology and its attitude to the Jew/Gentile
      divide distinguishable from those of the supposed redactional insertions?

      Ron Price,

      Derbyshire, UK

      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ronald Price
      LM, Thanks for your answers to my queries. Just a few observations: It is not clear why you have chosen immediately , amazement and duplication as the
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 4, 2013
        LM,

        Thanks for your answers to my queries. Just a few observations:

        It is not clear why you have chosen 'immediately', 'amazement' and
        duplication as the crucial characteristics of redacted Mark (as opposed to
        pMark). You admit that the Latinisms occur "in all stages of the
        composition". There is also a theme of authority (EXOUSIA) which occurs in
        both parts. I'm wondering whether there is any reason why Latinisms and
        'authority' are not regarded as crucial characteristics for the purpose of
        positing the boundaries of pMark.

        The resulting distribution of references to miracles is curious. It appears
        that all the specific miracles are allocated to redacted Mark, yet in pMark
        there remain several references to unspecified miracles, together with the
        refusal to perform a sign (= miracle?). It is strange to contemplate a
        document which claims lots of miracles, but doesn't detail a single one of
        them. It would not have been very effective, for it's the colourful details
        which stick in people's minds. (I remember learning the value of being
        specific, many years ago in connection with sermon preparation.) Thus it
        seems we would have to posit a peculiarly incompetent author for pMark.

        I did spot one case where you don't appear to have stuck to your formula of
        using the three characteristics as criteria for (pericope?) selection,
        namely 11:15-19 in pMark, where you have omitted part of a sentence in v.18
        which refers to amazement (EKPLHSSW). Shouldn't this pericope have been
        allocated to redactional Mark? However I admit it would have caused a
        problem because the "Again they came to Jerusalem ..." in 11:27 does not
        make sense without the previous visit mentioned in 11:15.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • E Bruce Brooks
        To: Synoptic In Response To: Ron Price On: Accretional Mark From: Bruce Taking Ron s recent comment (on a proposal about Mark which I have not yet had leisure
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 4, 2013
          To: Synoptic
          In Response To: Ron Price
          On: Accretional Mark
          From: Bruce

          Taking Ron's recent comment (on a proposal about Mark which I have not yet
          had leisure to examine as such) as applying to any proposed stratification
          of Mark:

          RON: The resulting distribution of references to miracles is curious. It
          appears that all the specific miracles are allocated to redacted Mark, yet
          in pMark there remain several references to unspecified miracles, together
          with the refusal to perform a sign (= miracle?).

          BRUCE: I agree that it is probably more convincing if an accretional text,
          from any given point, has a consistent view of miracles. It is however the
          nature of any accretional text that it may, cumulatively, contradict or at
          least depart from itself. That is one of the ways we recognize accretions
          (adterpolations, interpolations, whatever).

          Take a couple of possibilities. If, for example, there were a Historical
          Jesus who took a firmly rational Later Prophets line, and abjured
          supernatural stunts, and then there later arose a Post-Historical or
          constructed Jesus who performed such stunts, we would seem to have, in real
          life, the kind of situation to which Ron refers. It is not necessarily
          "strange" either in real life or in a text which faithfully follows that
          development in real life. Neither would the opposite distribution be
          "strange," in the sense of unlikely to arise through a natural formation
          process. It would merely imply a charlatan wonder-working Historical Jesus,
          whose followers later rationalized him as refusing to perform such stunts
          when asked to by a superstitious, uncomprehending public. Such a text
          (either of the above supposed texts) would contradict itself if read as a
          single account. But as a sequence, reflecting advancing ideas of the Founder
          held by earlier and then by later Followers, either would make perfect
          sense. The sense they make, and the sense many accretional texts make, is
          that of an authority document continuously responding to, and keeping itself
          current with, the felt interests and needs of its public. The quirks and
          concerns of that public are not in principle predictable.

          RON: It is strange to contemplate a document which claims lots of miracles,
          but doesn't detail a single one of them. It would not have been very
          effective,

          BRUCE: As far as that goes, it is not required of a document, or of a
          political speech, that it be effective. It is sufficient if its composer
          thought, rightly or wrongly, that, in the circumstances of the time, it
          would do what was intended of it. That judgement (whether rightly or wrongly
          made by the original writer) will depend in part on what the writer imagined
          his audience as already knowing, or needing to know, or needing to be
          corrected about. Again we come to the question of the audience of the work,
          which should always be part of our meditations about the implied strategy of
          the work.

          Much of what accretional texts seem to do may look to us ineffective, yet in
          retrospect at least some of it seems, after all, to been highly effective.
          Take the Analects of Confucius (see The Original Analects, Columbia 1998) as
          a familiar and detailed example. The shift to a ritual-based and not an
          ethical-based proprietorship around the year 0400, in the successor School
          of Confucius, produced many changes in the text of that school, some of them
          appearing as new material, and some of them as interpolations added to the
          previous material. A few of the new chapters were added at the head, not the
          tail, of the previous material, so that of the 20 chapters of the present
          text, chapters 3, 2, and 1 were actually added, in that order, to the
          original head (and core) of the material. This may seem like a gossamer
          gesture, putting ritualist and individualist material ahead of the older
          dedicated public-service material. How, one might wonder, could mere
          pre-position ever overcome the force of the retained older material? How
          could the writers (in this case, the pre-posers) ever have expected it to
          work?

          But it did. The reading order of a text turns out to be enormously
          important, and stuff at the beginning tends to be much more prominent, in
          the minds of expert and amateur readers alike, than anything coming later.
          In Appendix 5 of the above work, there is a detailed explanation of how the
          sayings that are now earlier occupy the mind of the reader, to the effective
          exclusion of those that come later.

          So to all interested in accretional texts, and in which features of them may
          be effective or not effective in their own time, I venture to recommend that
          Appendix. In addition, as a holiday bonus, those who peek at the earlier
          pages of the book will find, on p90, right at the top, a thought that they
          may have been in the habit of ascribing to Luke, but (as it seems)
          conceivably has an earlier provenance.

          The most intense and expert and sustained scrutiny of Luke, behind closed
          doors, is unlikely to reveal that possibility. Which is simply another
          excuse for taking an occasional walk outside, beyond the edges of one's own
          garden, breathing the wider air.

          Bruce

          E Bruce Brooks
          Warring States Project
          University of Massachusetts at Amherst
        • lmbarre@gmail.com
          ... From: Ronald Price Date: 1/4/2013 11:36:57 AM To: Synoptic-L Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Minimal and Maximal pMark Ron, Thank you for your pertinent
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 4, 2013
            -------Original Message-------

            From: Ronald Price
            Date: 1/4/2013 11:36:57 AM
            To: Synoptic-L
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Minimal and Maximal pMark

            Ron,

            Thank you for your pertinent comments. They are precisely what I am looking
            for.


            "It is not clear why you have chosen 'immediately', 'amazement' and
            Duplication as the crucial characteristics of redacted Mark (as opposed to
            PMark). "
            I chose these two motifs because of their excessive repetition and thus
            indicate an aspect of authorial style. It does proceed from the evidence of
            a redaction of an underlying narrative, which I find to be quite compelling.
            Would you not agree?
            Having come to this prior conclusion, then it is a matter of trying to
            demarcate the two levels of composition by some sort of literary strategy.
            The safest procedure would be to work out from those texts which form the
            context of the insertions, thus a minimal pMark Here, the alleged
            pre-Markan PN would supply the most Information simply because it has the
            most material of the underlying narrative. But it is also of some
            Importance at getting at this narrative that it ended in Mark 15:39. This
            then Identifies the subsequent material as Markan, being the episodes of the
            burial and the empty tomb. In the latter, the motif of "amazement" is in
            evidence. So from this point, I work back into the material where the same
            motif occurs. As it turns out, the motif, like the use of the adverb, is
            also excessive. Thus, noting the execessive repetition of the two motifs
            begins to build a profile and an index of the Markan redaction. It does
            show, I think, that the redactor was Indeed fond of repetition.
            Also, note that in the insertion of the Baptizer's death, we have what I
            think is a very clear instance of a redactional insert in which the adverb
            also occurs twice. So here the evidence of insertion by an interruption and
            resumption of a narrative flow is "confirmed" by bringing two criteria to
            bear on the question of what is likely Markan redaction. They "line up."
            The same situation obtains in the episode of the arrest of Jesus.
            Contextual evidence of an expansion is "confirmed" by the presence of the
            adverb, here also occurring twice within the alleged expansion. And again,
            in Peter's denial and Pilate's interrogation, the adverb occurs, again
            within the context of an alleged expansion based upon contextual grounds.
            Also, Pilate is amazed over Jesus. Of course, it is possible the pMark also
            used the adverb, but as I have said, I am applying multiple criteria so see
            to what extend they together provide evidence of redaction. In terms of
            literary genre, I find that pMark is a hellenistic artology of the exploits
            of a Hebrew theious aner, one Jesus of Nazareth.
            There is also the working assumption that pMark, when providing a background
            for PN, remained consistent with PN's "non-Christian" view of Jesus and that
            those texts which do actually belong to the Markan level of redaction. So I
            am proceeding with an awareness of certain assumptions that may In
            themselves not be strictly convincing. Still, I am trying to make a case
            for what is a probable thesis. For example, based upon the premise that
            Markan additions are identified by the use of repetition also contains the
            same doubt that pMark also used repetitive motifs. But I am finding that we
            have a confluence of repetition and Christainizing texts working together,
            as in the thrice repeated prediction of Jesus' passion, death, and
            especially, his resurrection, which as I have said, on the grounds the the
            empty-tomb episode, is a Markan addition, and which also contains the
            amazement " motif. Indeed, the amazement at the empty-tomb seems to
            function as a climax for amazement over Jesus. So in a sense, my strategy
            is something of a common sense approach. If evidence of pMark is probable,
            and I think it definitely is, how should one preceed to demarcate pMark and
            Mark? My answer is the application of multiple criteria; 1) contextual
            evidence; 2) the use of excessive repetiton of certain motifs; 3) a
            non-Christian portrayal of Jesus that is consistent with PN's portrayal.
            You admit that the Latinisms occur "in all stages of the
            composition". There is also a theme of authority (EXOUSIA) which occurs in
            both parts. I'm wondering whether there is any reason why Latinisms and
            'authority' are not regarded as crucial characteristics for the purpose of
            Positing the Boundaries of pMark.

            As I said, the use of the same motif in both alleged levels of composition
            of course cannot be excluded and is in evidence in some cases as you point
            out. This is to be expected. However, as I said, I bring together multiple
            critera to get a probable demarcation of pMark and Mark.

            The resulting distribution of references to miracles is curious. It appears
            that all the specific miracles are allocated to redacted Mark, yet in pMark
            There remain several references to unspecified miracles, together with the
            Refusal to perform a sign (= miracle?). It is strange to contemplate a
            Document which claims lots of MIracles, but doesn't detail a isngle one of
            Them. It would not have been very effective, for it's the colourful details
            which stick in people's minds. (I REMember learning the value of being
            Specific, many years ago in connection with sermon preparation.) Thus it
            Seems we would have to posit a peculiarly incompetent author for pMark.
            Yes, I think that "curious" is a relevant observation, but I do not think
            that we can insist that pMark had to include an account of a miracle or
            exorcism. In this regard, is appears to be relevant that with the sending
            out the Twelve, the text is content to state that the Twelve performed
            exorcisms without describing such. Note that in this case, the conclusion
            is quite tight in noting both what the apostles taught and did.
            12 They went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they were
            casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and
            healing them.
            30 The apostles gathered together with Jesus ; and they reported to Him all
            that they had done and taught.
            "had done"=exocisms and healings and "taught"= preaching that men should
            repent.. Indeed, in all of the contexts of alleged insertions I find the
            same sort of tight verbal conrrepondences across the alleged Markan
            expansions.
            In terms of assessing my thesis and its evidence, one needs first to settle
            on the question of whether pMark In evidence. Once that is decided, then
            any reasonable strategy to get at it would be appropriate and helpful. But
            I do not think that one can just forget the evidence of expansion and go on
            to think that there is probable way to get at them. So the issue moves
            beyond the question of pMark to that of demarcating the two levels of
            compoisition. So my question to you would be, do you think that a theory of
            pMark is in evidence? If so, then how would you suggest that one should
            proceed to isolate the two levels of composition. They are actually two
            separate issues.

            I did spot one case where you don't appear to have stuck to your formula of
            using the three characteristics as criteria for (pericope?) selection,
            Namely 11:15-19 in pMark, where you have omitted part of a sentence in v.18
            Which refers to amazement (EKPLHSSW). Shouldn't this pericope have been
            Allocated to redactional Mark? However I admit it would have caused a
            problem because the "Again they came to Jerusalem ..." in 11:27 does not
            Make sense without the previous visit mentioned in 11:15.
            Cleansing the Temple
            11:15 Then they came to Jerusalem. Jesus entered the temple area and began
            to drive out those who were selling and buying In the temple courts. He
            TUrned over the tables of the Money changers and the chairs of those selling
            doves, 11:16 and he would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the
            temple courts. 11:17 Then he began to teach them and said, “Is it not
            written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But
            you have turned it into a den of robbers!”
            11:18 The chief priests and the experts in the law heard it and they
            considered how they could assassinate him, for they feared him, because the
            whole crowd was amazed by his teaching. 11:19 When evening came, Jesus and
            his disciples went out of the city.
            Yes, this is a case where multiple entrances into Jerusalem seems to
            indicate that the redactor has created the repeated entrance and that 11:15
            has the one entrance of the underlying narrative, pMark. So here the
            evidence is ambiguous. To resolve it, I am inclined to think that vv 18-19
            is a Markan addition to the episode, especially because v 19 has Jesus
            repeatedly coming in and out of Jerusalem, which allowed Mark to insert his
            additional material. The method of expansion reminds me of the boat trips
            mentioned earlier in the Gospel. Also, by suspecting that vv18-19 is an
            addition, we have a complete pericope regarding Jesus' attack upon the
            temple moneychangers. So yes, your objection is valid, but not unresolvable
            It does call for a closer inspection of the content of these verses in
            terms of composition and redaction.
            I would add that it is pertinent that the analysis of the composition of PN
            by several find that it has received Markan expansions. However, it does
            not seem to be, and here I need to do more research, that this position has
            not be extended to the pre-PN material as I have done. It is unwarranted to
            think that the Gospel has only been expanded in the PN as I think I have
            shown.
            LMB


            Ron Price,

            Derbyshire, UK

            http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ronald Price
            ... LM, At this stage I can neither agree nor disagree. You have pointed to certain stylistic features common in Mark s gospel and said that they are secondary
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 5, 2013
              LM wrote:

              > I chose these two motifs ['immediately' and 'amazement'] because of their
              > excessive repetition and thus indicate an aspect of authorial style. It does
              > proceed from the evidence of a redaction of an underlying narrative, which I
              > find to be quite compelling.
              > Would you not agree?

              LM,

              At this stage I can neither agree nor disagree. You have pointed to certain
              stylistic features common in Mark's gospel and said that they are secondary
              to ("proceed from") the evidence of redaction. So what exactly is the
              evidence for redaction of an underlying narrative? Quoting examples is not
              the same as supplying evidence. If you have set out evidence for redaction
              which is independent of these stylistic features, I must have missed it.
              (The page you pointed to on the 'Early Christian Writings' web site provides
              evidence of what certain scholars believed about the extent of a supposed
              pre-Markan passion narrative, but not why they believed in its historicity.)

              Ron Price,

              Derbyshire, UK

              http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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