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Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

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  • Jack Kilmon
    I think it is very likely, Will. I am convinced that Jesus was an Enochian, not a Mosaic, Jew. I think little brother Jimmy entered the fray after the
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 2, 2012
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      I think it is very likely, Will. I am convinced that Jesus was an Enochian,
      not a Mosaic, Jew. I think little brother Jimmy entered the fray after the
      crucifixion to "rehabilitate" his big brother posthumously.
      Jack

      Jack Kilmon
      Houston, TX

      -----Original Message-----
      From: will
      Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 4:32 AM
      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

      There aren't any "You petitions or We petitions" in the prayers of Enoch and
      the
      Angel [found in 1 Enoch] either.

      The phrase "Hallowed be Thy name" occurs at the beginning of the Enochian
      prayer
      [61.12] and "thy will be done" seems to me to be implied in the phrase "so
      shall
      it be unto thee" [71.15].

      So, is it possible that the original "first edition" of Jesus's "Lord's
      prayer"
      is connected with Enoch?

      --------------------------------------
      [Enoch says]
      God,
      61.12: We bless, and glorify, and extol, and hallow Thy blessed name,
      We glorify and bless Thy name for ever and ever.

      61.13: For great is the mercy of God, and He is long-suffering,
      And all His works and all that He has created
      He has revealed to the righteous and elect In the name of God.

      [The Angel says]
      71.14: This [Enoch] is the Son of Man who is born unto righteousness,
      And righteousness abides over him,
      And the righteousness of the Head of Days forsakes him not.

      71.15: He proclaims unto thee peace in the name of Heaven,
      For from hence has proceeded peace since the creation of the world,
      And so shall it be unto thee for ever and for ever and ever.

      71.16: And all shall walk in his ways since righteousness never forsakes
      him:
      With him will be their dwelling-places, and with him their heritage,
      And they shall not be separated from him for ever and ever and ever.

      71.17: And so there shall be eternal life with that Son of Man [Enoch],
      And the righteous shall have peace and an upright way
      In the name of God for ever and ever.
      --------------------------------------

      REF: The Book of Enoch - R. H. Charles


      William Penrhiw
      Cardiff, UK





      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jgibson" <jgibson000@...>
      To: <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP


      > On 11/29/2012 6:36 AM, Keith Yoder wrote:
      >> There is a nice online summary of this variant in Wieland Willker's Luke
      >> volume of textual commentary, pages 295-296. He also cites the Leaney
      >> article as well as this comment by Streeter.
      >> "Now in view of the immense pressure of the tendency to assimilate the
      >> two
      >> versions of this specially familiar prayer, and of the improbability that
      >> various orthodox Fathers should have adopted (without knowing it) the
      >> text of
      >> Marcion, the probability is high that the reading of 700, 162, which
      >> makes
      >> the Gospels differ most, is what Luke wrote."
      > Fascinating. Thanks!
      >
      > If the variant is original, it gives a new sense to the aim of the LP
      > (keeping the disciples from apostasy) . And it shows, to my mind at
      > least, that the notion that the LP is made up of You petitions and We
      > petitions is a false one.
      >
      > Jeffrey
      >
      > --
      > ---
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd
      > Chicago, IL
      > jgibson000@...
      >
      >



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    • David Inglis
      The same argument would suggest that Marcion’s (shorter) version of the LP pre-dates the one in Lk, and if we had just Marcion’s gospel text (and not the
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 2, 2012
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        The same argument would suggest that Marcion’s (shorter) version of the LP pre-dates the one in Lk, and if we had just Marcion’s gospel text (and not the pleadings of Tertullian and Epiphanius regarding his supposed motives) then I feel sure that is how it would be regarded. Anyway, I have written a fair amount on the variants in the LP here https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/marcion/marcion-s-gospel-compared-verse-by-verse-with-luke/lk-11 .



        David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



        From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jones
        Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:32 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

        Ken,

        You and I have access to the same data. And I'm sure you're aware that a standard interpretation of data like this is that it is more likely that Mt added a favorite word to Lk than Lk omitted the phrase. I can add nothing new to the standard argument (which I find persuasive in this case).

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jack Kilmon
        Matthew, who was not competent in Hebrew or Aramaic, first used a Greek translation of an Aramaic source and tweaked it a bit to expand/explain certain
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 2, 2012
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          Matthew, who was not competent in Hebrew or Aramaic, first used a Greek
          translation of an Aramaic source and "tweaked" it a bit to expand/explain
          certain petitions. Luke used an Aramaic document which he translated
          himself, also looked at Matthew and created a shorter version (as was the
          original from Jesus' lips), but also tweaked a bit to explain Aramaic idiom
          in one petition. However we try to disentangle the Matthean and Lukan LP to
          find a form critical version, if one does not appeal to the Aramaic that
          left the lips of Jesus in the first place, one is paddling without an oar. I
          give no credence to a mid second century dualist/docetist. Of course,
          Marcion is the darling of the Jesus mythists.
          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          Houston, TX

          -----Original Message-----
          From: David Inglis
          Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 11:31 AM
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

          The same argument would suggest that Marcion’s (shorter) version of the LP
          pre-dates the one in Lk, and if we had just Marcion’s gospel text (and not
          the pleadings of Tertullian and Epiphanius regarding his supposed motives)
          then I feel sure that is how it would be regarded. Anyway, I have written a
          fair amount on the variants in the LP here
          https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/marcion/marcion-s-gospel-compared-verse-by-verse-with-luke/lk-11
          .



          David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



          From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Chuck Jones
          Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:32 PM
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

          Ken,

          You and I have access to the same data. And I'm sure you're aware that a
          standard interpretation of data like this is that it is more likely that Mt
          added a favorite word to Lk than Lk omitted the phrase. I can add nothing
          new to the standard argument (which I find persuasive in this case).

          Chuck

          Rev. Chuck Jones
          Atlanta, Georgia



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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