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Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

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  • Chuck Jones
    Ken, By very, very quick count, Mt uses heaven just under 80 times to Lk s 25.  I didn t check Mk because of its shorter overall length.  Much of the
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 29, 2012
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      Ken,

      By very, very quick count, Mt uses heaven just under 80 times to Lk's 25.  I didn't check Mk because of its shorter overall length.  Much of the increase comes from Mt changing "kingdom of god" into "kingdom of heaven."

      Chuck

      Rev. Chuck Jones
      Atlanta, Georgia


      Ken wrote:

       "And ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς is not "particularly" Matthean. It's found as a description of the Father in Jesus' instruction on prayer in Mk. 11.25." 

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ken Olson
      Chuck, Ok. 80 is bigger than 25. And 80 is even more times greater than the 1 example I cited from Mk. 11.25. But could you explain what would suggest to you
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 29, 2012
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        Chuck,

        Ok. 80 is bigger than 25. And 80 is even more times greater than the 1 example I cited from Mk. 11.25.

        But could you explain what would suggest to you that the number of times Matthew uses the word heaven is more relevant to judging the relative priority of a saying of Jesus in which he instructs his disciples in how to pray and includes the entire phrase describing the father as "who is in the heavens" than the one example in Mk. 11.25, which predates both Matthew and Luke?

        And while you're looking at numbers, you might compare how many times Jesus uses the unmodified (no appositive, article, or further descriptor) vocative PATER in the various synoptic gospels.

        Best,

        Ken


        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        From: chuckjonez@...
        Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:32:49 -0800
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP


























        Ken,



        By very, very quick count, Mt uses heaven just under 80

        times to Lk's 25. I didn't check Mk because of its shorter overall length. Much of the increase comes from Mt changing "kingdom of god" into "kingdom of heaven."



        Chuck



        Rev. Chuck Jones

        Atlanta, Georgia



        Ken wrote:



        "And ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς is not "particularly" Matthean. It's found as a description of the Father in Jesus' instruction on prayer in Mk. 11.25."



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chuck Jones
        Ken, You and I have access to the same data.  And I m sure you re aware that a standard interpretation of data like this is that it is more likely that Mt
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 29, 2012
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          Ken,

          You and I have access to the same data.  And I'm sure you're aware that a standard interpretation of data like this is that it is more likely that Mt added a favorite word to Lk than Lk omitted the phrase.  I can add nothing new to the standard argument (which I find persuasive in this case).

          Chuck

          Rev. Chuck Jones
          Atlanta, Georgia


          ________________________________
          From: Ken Olson <kenolson101@...>
          To: "synoptic@yahoogroups.com" <synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 3:20 PM
          Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP


           

          Chuck,

          Ok. 80 is bigger than 25. And 80 is even more times greater than the 1 example I cited from Mk. 11.25.

          But could you explain what would suggest to you that the number of times Matthew uses the word heaven is more relevant to judging the relative priority of a saying of Jesus in which he instructs his disciples in how to pray and includes the entire phrase describing the father as "who is in the heavens" than the one example in Mk. 11.25, which predates both Matthew and Luke?

          And while you're looking at numbers, you might compare how many times Jesus uses the unmodified (no appositive, article, or further descriptor) vocative PATER in the various synoptic gospels.

          Best,

          Ken


          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          From: chuckjonez@...
          Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:32:49 -0800
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP


























          Ken,



          By very, very quick count, Mt uses heaven just under 80

          times to Lk's 25. I didn't check Mk because of its shorter overall length. Much of the increase comes from Mt changing "kingdom of god" into "kingdom of heaven."



          Chuck



          Rev. Chuck Jones

          Atlanta, Georgia



          Ken wrote:



          "And ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς is not "particularly" Matthean. It's found as a description of the Father in Jesus' instruction on prayer in Mk. 11.25."



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Mealand
          Though I was not wholly persuaded by the 1956 article by Leaney, I was surprised at the range of evidence he cited in favour of Gregory of Nyssa s variant, and
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 30, 2012
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            Though I was not wholly persuaded by the 1956
            article by Leaney, I was surprised at the range
            of evidence he cited in favour of Gregory of
            Nyssa's variant, and the fact that there is much
            more to be said for it both in terms of its Jewish
            context, and its place in early Christian practice.
            I was surprised by the extent of the evidence, not
            by the fact that Leaney did a thorough job on it -
            though I only had time to give it a very quick read.

            David M.

            ---------
            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


            --
            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
          • Jgibson
            ... I can t seem to locate the article in my files.. JSTOR has only the first page of it available. Does anyone here has a scan of it? Jeffrey -- ... Jeffrey
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 30, 2012
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              On 11/30/2012 4:40 AM, David Mealand wrote:
              > Though I was not wholly persuaded by the 1956
              > article by Leaney, I was surprised at the range
              > of evidence he cited in favour of Gregory of
              > Nyssa's variant, and the fact that there is much
              > more to be said for it both in terms of its Jewish
              > context, and its place in early Christian practice.
              > I was surprised by the extent of the evidence, not
              > by the fact that Leaney did a thorough job on it -
              > though I only had time to give it a very quick read.
              >
              > David M.
              >
              > ---------
              > David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
              >
              >
              I can't seem to locate the article in my files.. JSTOR has only the
              first page of it available. Does anyone here has a scan of it?

              Jeffrey

              --
              ---
              Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd
              Chicago, IL
              jgibson000@...



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • will
              There aren t any You petitions or We petitions in the prayers of Enoch and the Angel [found in 1 Enoch] either. The phrase Hallowed be Thy name occurs at
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 2, 2012
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                There aren't any "You petitions or We petitions" in the prayers of Enoch and the
                Angel [found in 1 Enoch] either.

                The phrase "Hallowed be Thy name" occurs at the beginning of the Enochian prayer
                [61.12] and "thy will be done" seems to me to be implied in the phrase "so shall
                it be unto thee" [71.15].

                So, is it possible that the original "first edition" of Jesus's "Lord's prayer"
                is connected with Enoch?

                --------------------------------------
                [Enoch says]
                God,
                61.12: We bless, and glorify, and extol, and hallow Thy blessed name,
                We glorify and bless Thy name for ever and ever.

                61.13: For great is the mercy of God, and He is long-suffering,
                And all His works and all that He has created
                He has revealed to the righteous and elect In the name of God.

                [The Angel says]
                71.14: This [Enoch] is the Son of Man who is born unto righteousness,
                And righteousness abides over him,
                And the righteousness of the Head of Days forsakes him not.

                71.15: He proclaims unto thee peace in the name of Heaven,
                For from hence has proceeded peace since the creation of the world,
                And so shall it be unto thee for ever and for ever and ever.

                71.16: And all shall walk in his ways since righteousness never forsakes him:
                With him will be their dwelling-places, and with him their heritage,
                And they shall not be separated from him for ever and ever and ever.

                71.17: And so there shall be eternal life with that Son of Man [Enoch],
                And the righteous shall have peace and an upright way
                In the name of God for ever and ever.
                --------------------------------------

                REF: The Book of Enoch - R. H. Charles


                William Penrhiw
                Cardiff, UK





                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Jgibson" <jgibson000@...>
                To: <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:50 PM
                Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP


                > On 11/29/2012 6:36 AM, Keith Yoder wrote:
                >> There is a nice online summary of this variant in Wieland Willker's Luke
                >> volume of textual commentary, pages 295-296. He also cites the Leaney
                >> article as well as this comment by Streeter.
                >> "Now in view of the immense pressure of the tendency to assimilate the two
                >> versions of this specially familiar prayer, and of the improbability that
                >> various orthodox Fathers should have adopted (without knowing it) the text of
                >> Marcion, the probability is high that the reading of 700, 162, which makes
                >> the Gospels differ most, is what Luke wrote."
                > Fascinating. Thanks!
                >
                > If the variant is original, it gives a new sense to the aim of the LP
                > (keeping the disciples from apostasy) . And it shows, to my mind at
                > least, that the notion that the LP is made up of You petitions and We
                > petitions is a false one.
                >
                > Jeffrey
                >
                > --
                > ---
                > Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
                > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd
                > Chicago, IL
                > jgibson000@...
                >
                >
              • Jack Kilmon
                I think it is very likely, Will. I am convinced that Jesus was an Enochian, not a Mosaic, Jew. I think little brother Jimmy entered the fray after the
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 2, 2012
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                  I think it is very likely, Will. I am convinced that Jesus was an Enochian,
                  not a Mosaic, Jew. I think little brother Jimmy entered the fray after the
                  crucifixion to "rehabilitate" his big brother posthumously.
                  Jack

                  Jack Kilmon
                  Houston, TX

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: will
                  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 4:32 AM
                  To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

                  There aren't any "You petitions or We petitions" in the prayers of Enoch and
                  the
                  Angel [found in 1 Enoch] either.

                  The phrase "Hallowed be Thy name" occurs at the beginning of the Enochian
                  prayer
                  [61.12] and "thy will be done" seems to me to be implied in the phrase "so
                  shall
                  it be unto thee" [71.15].

                  So, is it possible that the original "first edition" of Jesus's "Lord's
                  prayer"
                  is connected with Enoch?

                  --------------------------------------
                  [Enoch says]
                  God,
                  61.12: We bless, and glorify, and extol, and hallow Thy blessed name,
                  We glorify and bless Thy name for ever and ever.

                  61.13: For great is the mercy of God, and He is long-suffering,
                  And all His works and all that He has created
                  He has revealed to the righteous and elect In the name of God.

                  [The Angel says]
                  71.14: This [Enoch] is the Son of Man who is born unto righteousness,
                  And righteousness abides over him,
                  And the righteousness of the Head of Days forsakes him not.

                  71.15: He proclaims unto thee peace in the name of Heaven,
                  For from hence has proceeded peace since the creation of the world,
                  And so shall it be unto thee for ever and for ever and ever.

                  71.16: And all shall walk in his ways since righteousness never forsakes
                  him:
                  With him will be their dwelling-places, and with him their heritage,
                  And they shall not be separated from him for ever and ever and ever.

                  71.17: And so there shall be eternal life with that Son of Man [Enoch],
                  And the righteous shall have peace and an upright way
                  In the name of God for ever and ever.
                  --------------------------------------

                  REF: The Book of Enoch - R. H. Charles


                  William Penrhiw
                  Cardiff, UK





                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jgibson" <jgibson000@...>
                  To: <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:50 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP


                  > On 11/29/2012 6:36 AM, Keith Yoder wrote:
                  >> There is a nice online summary of this variant in Wieland Willker's Luke
                  >> volume of textual commentary, pages 295-296. He also cites the Leaney
                  >> article as well as this comment by Streeter.
                  >> "Now in view of the immense pressure of the tendency to assimilate the
                  >> two
                  >> versions of this specially familiar prayer, and of the improbability that
                  >> various orthodox Fathers should have adopted (without knowing it) the
                  >> text of
                  >> Marcion, the probability is high that the reading of 700, 162, which
                  >> makes
                  >> the Gospels differ most, is what Luke wrote."
                  > Fascinating. Thanks!
                  >
                  > If the variant is original, it gives a new sense to the aim of the LP
                  > (keeping the disciples from apostasy) . And it shows, to my mind at
                  > least, that the notion that the LP is made up of You petitions and We
                  > petitions is a false one.
                  >
                  > Jeffrey
                  >
                  > --
                  > ---
                  > Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
                  > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd
                  > Chicago, IL
                  > jgibson000@...
                  >
                  >



                  ------------------------------------

                  Synoptic-L homepage: http://markgoodacre.org/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links
                • David Inglis
                  The same argument would suggest that Marcion’s (shorter) version of the LP pre-dates the one in Lk, and if we had just Marcion’s gospel text (and not the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 2, 2012
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                    The same argument would suggest that Marcion’s (shorter) version of the LP pre-dates the one in Lk, and if we had just Marcion’s gospel text (and not the pleadings of Tertullian and Epiphanius regarding his supposed motives) then I feel sure that is how it would be regarded. Anyway, I have written a fair amount on the variants in the LP here https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/marcion/marcion-s-gospel-compared-verse-by-verse-with-luke/lk-11 .



                    David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



                    From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jones
                    Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:32 PM
                    To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

                    Ken,

                    You and I have access to the same data. And I'm sure you're aware that a standard interpretation of data like this is that it is more likely that Mt added a favorite word to Lk than Lk omitted the phrase. I can add nothing new to the standard argument (which I find persuasive in this case).

                    Chuck

                    Rev. Chuck Jones
                    Atlanta, Georgia



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jack Kilmon
                    Matthew, who was not competent in Hebrew or Aramaic, first used a Greek translation of an Aramaic source and tweaked it a bit to expand/explain certain
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 2, 2012
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                      Matthew, who was not competent in Hebrew or Aramaic, first used a Greek
                      translation of an Aramaic source and "tweaked" it a bit to expand/explain
                      certain petitions. Luke used an Aramaic document which he translated
                      himself, also looked at Matthew and created a shorter version (as was the
                      original from Jesus' lips), but also tweaked a bit to explain Aramaic idiom
                      in one petition. However we try to disentangle the Matthean and Lukan LP to
                      find a form critical version, if one does not appeal to the Aramaic that
                      left the lips of Jesus in the first place, one is paddling without an oar. I
                      give no credence to a mid second century dualist/docetist. Of course,
                      Marcion is the darling of the Jesus mythists.
                      Jack

                      Jack Kilmon
                      Houston, TX

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: David Inglis
                      Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 11:31 AM
                      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

                      The same argument would suggest that Marcion’s (shorter) version of the LP
                      pre-dates the one in Lk, and if we had just Marcion’s gospel text (and not
                      the pleadings of Tertullian and Epiphanius regarding his supposed motives)
                      then I feel sure that is how it would be regarded. Anyway, I have written a
                      fair amount on the variants in the LP here
                      https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/marcion/marcion-s-gospel-compared-verse-by-verse-with-luke/lk-11
                      .



                      David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



                      From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Chuck Jones
                      Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:32 PM
                      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Variant in Lukan version of LP

                      Ken,

                      You and I have access to the same data. And I'm sure you're aware that a
                      standard interpretation of data like this is that it is more likely that Mt
                      added a favorite word to Lk than Lk omitted the phrase. I can add nothing
                      new to the standard argument (which I find persuasive in this case).

                      Chuck

                      Rev. Chuck Jones
                      Atlanta, Georgia



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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