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earliest scholarly study of the LP

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  • Jgibson
    Discourse about, and commentary upon, the LP is, as is well known, not a modern phenomenon. It is something that has been engaged in since at least the third
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 28, 2012
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      Discourse about, and commentary upon, the LP is, as is well known, not
      a modern phenomenon. It is something that has been engaged in since at
      least the third century CE, beginning, so far as we know, in the Latin
      West somewhere between the years 200 and 206 with Tertullian in his De
      Oratione (On Prayer). And it has continued until this day. But as it
      was assumed since Tertullian's time up until the modern period that
      “there is comprised in the prayer an epitome of the entire Gospel” (ut
      re vera in oratione breviarium totius evangelii comprehendatur), and
      given that the LP was regarded as the basic tool, along with the Creed
      and the Decalogue, for teaching Christian doctrine and achieving a
      “Christ centered life”, almost all of this discourse and commentary was
      not concerned with establishing what the original (or even the
      evangelistic) meaning and intent of the LP might have been. And even
      when exegesis was undertaken, it was done so in order to fit the
      meaning of the prayer within the context of a presumed unified biblical
      witness to theological apriorii and under the hermeneutical assumption
      that of Scriptura sui ipsius interpres (Scripture is its own interpreter).

      But of course, this changed with the realization that -- to use
      Krister Stendahl's words – "the Bible contains revelation that could be
      grasped in the clear form of eternal truth unconditioned and
      uncontaminated by historical limitations, could no longer be maintained
      and that grasping both what a Biblical text meant, as well as what it
      might mean, could only be determined by reading that text from within
      the historical and cultural and religious context in which it had been
      produced".

      So today, with perhaps the devotional commentaries on the LP as the
      exception, virtually everyone who discusses the LP does so with the
      intent, and through the use of historical critical methodologies, to
      uncover what Jesus (or the evangelists who record the LP) saw as that
      prayer's aim and original meaning.

      I note all of this because I am interested in discovering is who it was
      who, under this realization, first moved away from the pre-modern
      understanding of what the LP was all about, and produced the first
      historical critical commentary on/discussion of the LP? Does anyone know?

      With thanks in advance,

      Jeffrey




      -- --- Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon. 1500 W. Pratt Blvd Chicago, IL
      jgibson000@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jgibson
      Discourse about, and commentary upon, the LP is, as is well known, not a modern phenomenon. It is something that has been engaged in since at least the third
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 28, 2012
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        Discourse about, and commentary upon, the LP is, as is well known, not
        a modern phenomenon. It is something that has been engaged in since at
        least the third century CE, beginning, so far as we know, in the Latin
        West somewhere between the years 200 and 206 with Tertullian in his De
        Oratione (On Prayer). And it has continued until this day. But as it
        was assumed since Tertullian's time up until the modern period that
        “there is comprised in the prayer an epitome of the entire Gospel” (ut
        re vera in oratione breviarium totius evangelii comprehendatur), and
        given that the LP was regarded as the basic tool, along with the Creed
        and the Decalogue, for teaching Christian doctrine and achieving a
        “Christ centered life”, almost all of this discourse and commentary was
        not concerned with establishing what the original (or even the
        evangelistic) meaning and intent of the LP might have been. And even
        when exegesis was undertaken, it was done so in order to fit the
        meaning of the prayer within the context of a presumed unified biblical
        witness to theological apriorii and under the hermeneutical assumption
        that of Scriptura sui ipsius interpres (Scripture is its own interpreter).

        But of course, this changed with the realization that -- to use
        Krister Stendahl's words – "the Bible contains revelation that could be
        grasped in the clear form of eternal truth unconditioned and
        uncontaminated by historical limitations, could no longer be maintained
        and that grasping both what a Biblical text meant, as well as what it
        might mean, could only be determined by reading that text from within
        the historical and cultural and religious context in which it had been
        produced".

        So today, with perhaps the devotional commentaries on the LP as the
        exception, virtually everyone who discusses the LP does so with the
        intent, and through the use of historical critical methodologies, to
        uncover what Jesus (or the evangelists who record the LP) saw as that
        prayer's aim and original meaning.

        I note all of this because I am interested in discovering is who it was
        who, under this realization, first moved away from the pre-modern
        understanding of what the LP was all about, and produced the first
        historical critical commentary on/discussion of the LP? Does anyone know?

        With thanks in advance,

        Jeffrey




        -- --- Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon. 1500 W. Pratt Blvd Chicago, IL
        jgibson000@...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Mealand
        Maybe the bidding could be opened with the suggestion of looking at what Reimarus had to say about the Kingdom. But maybe there could be something earlier
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 29, 2012
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          Maybe the bidding could be opened with the
          suggestion of looking at what Reimarus had
          to say about the Kingdom. But maybe there
          could be something earlier than the late
          18th C.

          David M.


          ---------
          David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


          --
          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
        • Jgibson
          ... I checked Reimarus. Nothing there that I could see. Then I had the idea of looking at the discussion of the LP in the Meyer Commentary on Matthew. Looks
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 29, 2012
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            On 9/29/2012 5:32 AM, David Mealand wrote:
            > Maybe the bidding could be opened with the
            > suggestion of looking at what Reimarus had
            > to say about the Kingdom. But maybe there
            > could be something earlier than the late
            > 18th C.
            >
            > David M.
            I checked Reimarus. Nothing there that I could see. Then I had the
            idea of looking at the discussion of the LP in the Meyer Commentary on
            Matthew. Looks like there was quite a bit of discussion of the prayer
            that was intent to set it in a first century context beginning at least
            with Wetstein in 1751 or so. Meyer also mentions several studies of the
            LP that he relies upon -- among them those of Kamphausen, d. Oebet d.
            Ilcrrn, 1866 ; J. Hanne,
            in d. Jahrb. f. D. Th. 1806, p. 507 ff.

            Does anyone have any information on these authors and these works?

            Jeffrey

            --
            ---
            Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd
            Chicago, IL
            jgibson000@...
          • David Mealand
            Wetstein gives a lot of passages from Jewish and Graeco-Roman texts relevant to whatever verse in the NT he is at. On 6.10 for example he cites Berakot and
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 29, 2012
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              Wetstein gives a lot of passages from Jewish and
              Graeco-Roman texts relevant to whatever verse in the NT
              he is at. On 6.10 for example he cites Berakot and two
              rabbis who say a "benedictio" has to mention the name of God
              and the kingdom; he also cites Tanchuma , Sota, and "Jewish
              Prayers" including the Kaddisch - he gives 7 or 8 lines of
              detail here,including mention of Kingdom, redemption, and Messiah.
              By the time W gets to the doxology he has covered
              over 3 folio pages of double columns of text. By then he has
              also cited Aristotle, Epictetus and Diodorus as well as more
              Jewish and early Christian sources.

              David M.





              ---------
              David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


              --
              The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
              Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
            • David Mealand
              Kamphausen s book is presumably this one, and though in theory I should have access to it, I haven t navigated the obstacles as yet. Das Gebet des Herrn
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 30, 2012
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                Kamphausen's book is presumably this one, and though in theory
                I should have access to it, I haven't navigated the obstacles
                as yet.

                Das Gebet des Herrn
                Author: Adolf Kamphausen
                Publisher: Elberfeld : R.L. Friderichs, 1866.
                Series: (ATLA monograph preservation program ; ATLA fiche 1993-2055)
                Edition/Format: eBook : GermanView all editions and formats

                David M.


                ---------
                David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                --
                The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
              • David Mealand
                If one compares Wetstein with the earlier work by Matthew Poole, Synopsis criticorum ...commentatorum (1694) on Matthew 6.9-10 the earlier work does cite
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 1, 2012
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                  If one compares Wetstein with the earlier work by Matthew Poole,
                  Synopsis criticorum ...commentatorum (1694) on Matthew 6.9-10
                  the earlier work does cite Berakot fol 40.2 to the effect that prayer
                  which does not mention the kingdom is not prayer,
                  but apart from that it mainly focuses on the meaning of the words
                  in related biblical passages and in a theological setting. The difference
                  is that Wetstein is evidently much more aware of the need for historical
                  contextualization. The works Poole is using are learned and detailed,
                  but in the passage used for comparison they lack this historical element.
                  Wetstein is more aware of the context in Judaism of the Graeco-Roman period.

                  In the course of locating the web page for the work I inadvertently
                  clicked something which sent a repeat of an email from earlier
                  this year, for which I apologise.

                  David M.

                  ---------
                  David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                  --
                  The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                  Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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