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[Synoptic-L] Re: The Achilles heel of the Farrer Theory?

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  • Joseph
    Bruce, Again, I apologize for not having the time to give you more examples to discuss, though you seem quite capable of thorough discussion of even just the
    Message 1 of 40 , Aug 2 11:20 PM
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      Bruce,
      Again, I apologize for not having the time to give you more examples to discuss, though you seem quite capable of thorough discussion of even just the one.
      My response to your analysis of the text is that I think much of your description is plausible. It's quite plausible the more primitive form in Matthew is the result of Matthew redacting out features for which he had an aversion or other tendencies.
      It's also possible he had knowledge of this earlier form from elsewhere than Mark.

      Joe Weaks

      --- In Synoptic@yahoogroups.com, "E Bruce Brooks" <brooks@...> wrote:
      >
      > To: Synoptic
      > In Response To: Joe Weaks
      > On: Mk/Mt Primitivity
      > From: Bruce
      >
      > Joe had said that he finds examples, convincing to him, of greater
      > primitivity in Matthew compared to Mark. (It is agreed between us that
      > Fleddermann's arguments for primitivity sometimes "overreach").
      …
      > I was interested in the firm opinion of someone who
      > is in the present conversation.
      > And I sort of got it. Joe provides one example, namely: "Matthew's parallel
      > to Mark 6:4-5 …
      > This ends my discussion of Joe's example. I don't find that it proves its
      > intended point. I find instead that it can be treated, in detail, as an
      > example of Mk > Mt.
    • Ronald Price
      ... Jeffrey, I don t know for certain. But there are two arguments that indicate a *probable* link. The first involves the immediate context. 1 Cor 1:21-22
      Message 40 of 40 , Aug 29 2:24 AM
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        Jeffrey Gibson wrote:

        > How do you know for certain that 1 Cor 1:22 is an allusion to Mt 12:39
        > // Mt 16:4 c.f. Mk 8:12? After all, as we see in Josephus, "Jews"
        > /did/ seek "signs". So Paul may be making a statement about his
        > co-religionists that is based upon his experience/knowledge of them
        > rather than upon anything Jesus said, just as his statement about what
        > Greeks seek is based upon his experience of Greek culture and not
        > anything Jesus said.

        Jeffrey,

        I don't know for certain.

        But there are two arguments that indicate a *probable* link.

        The first involves the immediate context. 1 Cor 1:21-22 includes 'SOFIAS
        ..... KHRUGMATOS ..... IOUDAIOI SHMEIA AITOUSIN .....',
        with which we can compare the logia saying C5 (c.f. Q 11:29-32):
        '... H GENEA AUTH ... SHMEION ZHTEI ..... SOFIAN ..... KHRUGMA .....'
        Thus we have Jews (implicit in the original context of "this generation")
        requesting signs, and we have wisdom and preaching, all three together in
        both Paul and the logia.

        The second involves the wider context of 1 Cor chs. 1-4. This contains a
        cluster of apparent allusions to the logia.

        In addition to 1:21-22 there is 1:26-29 in which Paul wrote "consider your
        call" followed by the threefold repetition of "not many" and "God chose"
        (c.f. the logia saying C2, Mt 22:14).

        Then 1 Cor 2:4 refers to PEIQOIS SOFIAS LOGOIS (persuasive words of wisdom),
        which aptly describes the whole collection of wisdom sayings attributed to
        Jesus.

        Then there are several echoes of the logia: laying a foundation (1 Cor
        3:10-13, c.f. saying A22 'Rock/sand'); being filled, becoming rich and
        reigning (1 Cor 4:8, c.f. saying A1, Blessings); when reviled we bless (1
        Cor 4:12, c.f. saying A8 about loving enemies); kingdom of God associated
        with power (EN DUNAMEI, 1 Cor 4:20, c.f. saying C12, Mk 9:1). [For the first
        three of these Paul/synoptic echoes I am indebted to the section "Paul and
        Q" in Allison's "The Jesus Tradition in Q". Dale Allison surveys several
        possible links, but in the end is not convinced.]

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_sQet.html



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