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Re: [Synoptic-L] The Achilles heel of the Farrer Theory?

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  • Ronald Price
    ... Joe, There is another argument, though I m not sure it s what you would consider clear . In the period 30 CE to 60 CE (a time equivalent to a whole
    Message 1 of 40 , Aug 2, 2012
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      Joe Weaks wrote:

      > ..... what struck in in reading your "achilles heal" description is that its
      > description is necessarily obtuse and conjectural by nature. Is this really
      > the strongest, clearest argument we can make against the FT?


      There is another argument, though I'm not sure it's what you would consider

      In the period 30 CE to 60 CE (a time equivalent to a whole generation),
      James, Peter et al. must have tried very hard to propagate their
      interpretation of Jesus. In the latter half of this period they had stiff
      opposition from Paul whose outlook was very different in some areas. Now we
      know that Paul supplemented his personal missionary efforts with a series of
      letters, and these (at least the extant ones) must have been highly valued
      by their recipients because they were preserved. Did the Jesus movement in
      Jerusalem supplement their missionary efforts with anything in writing?
      Surely they must have done so. Their Jewish ancestors produced many
      documents to support their religious stance. And if the original Jesus
      movement put something in writing, it would have been in Aramaic (or just
      possibly, Hebrew).

      Of course there is no extant document attributable to this movement. But
      Papias referred to the "logia" which was in "Hebrew", and Greek writers
      often didn't discriminate between Hebrew and Aramaic. Also Paul referred to
      PEIQOIS SOFOIS LOGOIS ("persuasive words of wisdom", 1 Cor 2:4), which would
      have been an apt description of a collection of aphorisms or 'wisdom

      This is no proof. But it is highly suggestive, and when combined with the
      evidence for a written collection of aphorisms, which I presented in the
      original posting of this thread, it seems to me to make a powerful case for
      such a source.

      Developed in this way it becomes as much a case against the standard 2ST as
      it is against the FT.

      Ron Price,

      Derbyshire, UK


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    • Ronald Price
      ... Jeffrey, I don t know for certain. But there are two arguments that indicate a *probable* link. The first involves the immediate context. 1 Cor 1:21-22
      Message 40 of 40 , Aug 29, 2012
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        Jeffrey Gibson wrote:

        > How do you know for certain that 1 Cor 1:22 is an allusion to Mt 12:39
        > // Mt 16:4 c.f. Mk 8:12? After all, as we see in Josephus, "Jews"
        > /did/ seek "signs". So Paul may be making a statement about his
        > co-religionists that is based upon his experience/knowledge of them
        > rather than upon anything Jesus said, just as his statement about what
        > Greeks seek is based upon his experience of Greek culture and not
        > anything Jesus said.


        I don't know for certain.

        But there are two arguments that indicate a *probable* link.

        The first involves the immediate context. 1 Cor 1:21-22 includes 'SOFIAS
        with which we can compare the logia saying C5 (c.f. Q 11:29-32):
        '... H GENEA AUTH ... SHMEION ZHTEI ..... SOFIAN ..... KHRUGMA .....'
        Thus we have Jews (implicit in the original context of "this generation")
        requesting signs, and we have wisdom and preaching, all three together in
        both Paul and the logia.

        The second involves the wider context of 1 Cor chs. 1-4. This contains a
        cluster of apparent allusions to the logia.

        In addition to 1:21-22 there is 1:26-29 in which Paul wrote "consider your
        call" followed by the threefold repetition of "not many" and "God chose"
        (c.f. the logia saying C2, Mt 22:14).

        Then 1 Cor 2:4 refers to PEIQOIS SOFIAS LOGOIS (persuasive words of wisdom),
        which aptly describes the whole collection of wisdom sayings attributed to

        Then there are several echoes of the logia: laying a foundation (1 Cor
        3:10-13, c.f. saying A22 'Rock/sand'); being filled, becoming rich and
        reigning (1 Cor 4:8, c.f. saying A1, Blessings); when reviled we bless (1
        Cor 4:12, c.f. saying A8 about loving enemies); kingdom of God associated
        with power (EN DUNAMEI, 1 Cor 4:20, c.f. saying C12, Mk 9:1). [For the first
        three of these Paul/synoptic echoes I am indebted to the section "Paul and
        Q" in Allison's "The Jesus Tradition in Q". Dale Allison surveys several
        possible links, but in the end is not convinced.]

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK


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