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RE: [Synoptic-L] Tertullian, Adv. Marcion IV, chapter 40: "wine" vs. "fruit of the vine"

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  • Dennis Goffin
    David, I checked the Latin of the Vulgate on the Blue Bible site and it corresponds both to the Greek and the English of verse 18. I then found the
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 12, 2012
      David, I checked the Latin of the Vulgate on the Blue Bible site and it corresponds both to the Greek and the English of verse 18. I then found the Latin text of Adv. Marc. Bk 4, ch 40 on the net and there was no expression such as 'the fruit of the vine', just 'wine'.Dennis-----------Dennis Goffin

      Chorleywood UK

      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      From: davidinglis2@...
      Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:13:42 -0800
      Subject: [Synoptic-L] Tertullian, Adv. Marcion IV, chapter 40: "wine" vs. "fruit of the vine"




























      At the end of chapter 40, where he discusses Lk 22:17-20, Tertullian refers to wine several times. However, he does not

      use the phrase "fruit of the vine," as seen in Lk 22:18 (and also Mk 14:25 and Mt 26:29). At least, that's what we see

      in English. Could anyone who has access to Tertullian's Latin tell me whether he actually says "wine," or does he use

      something that could be seen as a Latin translation of the Greek for "fruit of the vine?"Alternatively, does anyone know

      of any versions of Lk 22:18 in other languages that contain something other than a translation of "fruit of the vine?"



      David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549



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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Mealand
      vinum = wine but also = grapes. Given a choice Latin writers tend to prefer terse to verbose, fruit of the vine is not terse, and Latin can do it with one
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 13, 2012
        vinum = wine but also = grapes. Given a choice
        Latin writers tend to prefer terse to verbose,
        "fruit of the vine" is not terse, and Latin can
        do it with one word.

        David M.

        Could try Bezae by navigating from here
        http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/exhibitions/KJV/codex.php?id=14
        or in Scrivener


        ---------
        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


        --
        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
      • Stephen Carlson
        ... Isn t uvae the normal word for grapes? Applying vinum to grapes is a common metaphorical usage, right? Stephen -- Stephen C. Carlson Graduate Program in
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 13, 2012
          On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:50 AM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          > vinum = wine but also = grapes. Given a choice
          > Latin writers tend to prefer terse to verbose,
          > "fruit of the vine" is not terse, and Latin can
          > do it with one word.
          >
          Isn't uvae the normal word for grapes? Applying vinum to grapes is a
          common metaphorical usage, right?

          Stephen
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson
          Graduate Program in Religion
          Duke University


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Mealand
          Happened to be at shelf next to W & W in the library stack just after coffee - they print de generatione vitis then in the apparatus generatione (genh/matos):
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 13, 2012
            Happened to be at shelf next to W & W in the library stack
            just after coffee - they print
            de generatione vitis
            then in the apparatus
            generatione (genh/matos): fructu a creatura d
            potione e genimine delta vitis: vineae a d + huius E b f
            cor. vat*

            though I am trying to transcribe what I scribbled
            while balancing a pile of books and notes.
            The f after huius is a long f I think.

            David M.



            ---------
            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


            --
            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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