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Tertullian, Adv. Marcion IV, chapter 40: "wine" vs. "fruit of the vine"

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  • David Inglis
    At the end of chapter 40, where he discusses Lk 22:17-20, Tertullian refers to wine several times. However, he does not use the phrase fruit of the vine, as
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 12, 2012
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      At the end of chapter 40, where he discusses Lk 22:17-20, Tertullian refers to wine several times. However, he does not
      use the phrase "fruit of the vine," as seen in Lk 22:18 (and also Mk 14:25 and Mt 26:29). At least, that's what we see
      in English. Could anyone who has access to Tertullian's Latin tell me whether he actually says "wine," or does he use
      something that could be seen as a Latin translation of the Greek for "fruit of the vine?"Alternatively, does anyone know
      of any versions of Lk 22:18 in other languages that contain something other than a translation of "fruit of the vine?"

      David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dennis Goffin
      David, I checked the Latin of the Vulgate on the Blue Bible site and it corresponds both to the Greek and the English of verse 18. I then found the
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 12, 2012
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        David, I checked the Latin of the Vulgate on the Blue Bible site and it corresponds both to the Greek and the English of verse 18. I then found the Latin text of Adv. Marc. Bk 4, ch 40 on the net and there was no expression such as 'the fruit of the vine', just 'wine'.Dennis-----------Dennis Goffin

        Chorleywood UK

        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        From: davidinglis2@...
        Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:13:42 -0800
        Subject: [Synoptic-L] Tertullian, Adv. Marcion IV, chapter 40: "wine" vs. "fruit of the vine"




























        At the end of chapter 40, where he discusses Lk 22:17-20, Tertullian refers to wine several times. However, he does not

        use the phrase "fruit of the vine," as seen in Lk 22:18 (and also Mk 14:25 and Mt 26:29). At least, that's what we see

        in English. Could anyone who has access to Tertullian's Latin tell me whether he actually says "wine," or does he use

        something that could be seen as a Latin translation of the Greek for "fruit of the vine?"Alternatively, does anyone know

        of any versions of Lk 22:18 in other languages that contain something other than a translation of "fruit of the vine?"



        David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Mealand
        vinum = wine but also = grapes. Given a choice Latin writers tend to prefer terse to verbose, fruit of the vine is not terse, and Latin can do it with one
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 13, 2012
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          vinum = wine but also = grapes. Given a choice
          Latin writers tend to prefer terse to verbose,
          "fruit of the vine" is not terse, and Latin can
          do it with one word.

          David M.

          Could try Bezae by navigating from here
          http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/exhibitions/KJV/codex.php?id=14
          or in Scrivener


          ---------
          David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


          --
          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
        • Stephen Carlson
          ... Isn t uvae the normal word for grapes? Applying vinum to grapes is a common metaphorical usage, right? Stephen -- Stephen C. Carlson Graduate Program in
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 13, 2012
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            On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:50 AM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            > vinum = wine but also = grapes. Given a choice
            > Latin writers tend to prefer terse to verbose,
            > "fruit of the vine" is not terse, and Latin can
            > do it with one word.
            >
            Isn't uvae the normal word for grapes? Applying vinum to grapes is a
            common metaphorical usage, right?

            Stephen
            --
            Stephen C. Carlson
            Graduate Program in Religion
            Duke University


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Mealand
            Happened to be at shelf next to W & W in the library stack just after coffee - they print de generatione vitis then in the apparatus generatione (genh/matos):
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 13, 2012
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              Happened to be at shelf next to W & W in the library stack
              just after coffee - they print
              de generatione vitis
              then in the apparatus
              generatione (genh/matos): fructu a creatura d
              potione e genimine delta vitis: vineae a d + huius E b f
              cor. vat*

              though I am trying to transcribe what I scribbled
              while balancing a pile of books and notes.
              The f after huius is a long f I think.

              David M.



              ---------
              David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


              --
              The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
              Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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