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RE: [Synoptic-L] Whoever is not with me is against me

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  • Dennis Goffin
    Forgive my tongue in cheek comment, Ron, I do actually respect what you have done, but I would respect it a lot more if these aphorisms could be demonstrated
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 4, 2012
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      Forgive my tongue in cheek comment, Ron, I do actually respect what you have done, but I would respect it a lot more if these aphorisms could be demonstrated individually to have arisen from Aramaic complete with Aramaic wordplays. THAT would really interest me. There is nothing in the collection that cannot be found either in the Wisdom literature, the DSS or the Apocrypha & Pseudepigrapha. Jesus was in fact only very slightly original but most of his ideas are of the time, confused and unoriginal and the way to make sense of him and the NT is to start in about 300BCE and work forward from there. Dennis
      ---------------------

      Dennis Goffin

      Chorleywood UK

      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      From: ron-price@...
      Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 10:40:29 +0000
      Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] Whoever is not with me is against me




























      On 04/02/2012 10:16, "Dennis Goffin" <d.goffin@...> wrote:



      > I am unable to go along with Ron's idea that a collection of aphorisms,

      > similar presumably in essence to the socalled Gospel of Thomas can tell us

      > anything other than that, like Thomas, oral sources got written down on more

      > than one occasion, but like Thomas, the result is often not more than a ragbag

      > with no major significance.



      Dennis, Bruce et al.,



      The result in the case of the logia is no ragbag. Rather it is a very

      carefully crafted piece of poetry, as you can see if you look at the web

      page below.



      More importantly, historians know nothing about the author/editor of GTh,

      except possibly his name. On the other hand, the logia was edited by an

      apostle called Matthew, no doubt with the full authority of James the

      brother of Jesus. Therefore it gives us a unique insight into the beliefs of

      the early Jesus movement ca. 45 CE before Paul came along and utterly

      transformed it.



      Ron Price,



      Derbyshire, UK



      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_sQet.html


















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    • Ronald Price
      BRUCE: ..... tossing all the alleged sayings of Jesus into the same hat, and from that hatful identifying the authentic Jesus sayings by their stylistic
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 4, 2012
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        BRUCE: ..... tossing all the alleged sayings of Jesus into the same hat, and
        from that hatful identifying the authentic Jesus sayings by their stylistic
        features, as many (including the influential Bultmann) essentially do, is
        worthless.

        RON: That is a parody of what I have done. The web page below and its sequel
        describe a logical approach.

        BRUCE: Methodologically speaking, if we put Gnomic in, we are going to get
        Nice out. The result is circular; that is, it is foreordained. I think the
        whole procedure is invalid.

        RON: What nonsense. There is nothing inherent in the aphoristic style which
        makes their content "nice".

        - - - - - - -

        BRUCE: ..... (1) the Mission to Jews
        came first, and was for a time the whole content of Jesus movement
        proselytizing, and .... (2) the Mission to Gentiles came later.

        RON: Then you should recognize that Mt 10:5b and Mt 10:23 (both of which are
        gnomic) constitute early testimony to an outlook which Mark and Luke
        declined to include in their more gentile-friendly gospels.

        - - - - - - -

        BRUCE: I don't think Mark is pushing anything; I think he is keeping his
        story up to date with what is going on in the Christian movement with which
        he was in touch.

        RON: Mark was an evangelist and the pioneer who created the gospel genre. He
        was no passive recorder.

        - - - - - - -

        BRUCE (earlier): There is a Markan parallel to the Beelzebul Accusation (Mk
        3:22-27), but none to the gathers/scatters verse.

        RON (earlier) : Mark's version of said verse was parked elsewhere (Mk 9:40).

        BRUCE: ..... I have trouble, for reasons repeatedly given above, with the
        verb "parked." It implies a single assembly from a bag of mixed pieces. The
        whole structure of the text tells me different. Mark is a very early
        original consecutive narrative ..... I very much doubt that a text
        assembled from a basketful of disconnected sayings would have the form of a
        consecutive but repeatedly interpolated text.

        RON: Again this is a parody of my position. The backbone is provided by the
        narrative. The aphorisms incorporated in Mark constitute between 5% and 10%
        of the text, and they were inserted at appropriate points in the pre-planned
        structure.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_dblt.html



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