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Was Marcion's gospel originally in Latin or Greek?

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  • David Inglis
    It rather stuns me to admit that I am only now asking this question, but does anyone know of any evidence either way? This http://www.jstor.org/pss/1582244
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 31, 2011
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      It rather stuns me to admit that I am only now asking this question, but does anyone know of any evidence either way?
      This http://www.jstor.org/pss/1582244 page from "The Latin Text of Luke in Marcion and Tertullian" suggests a European
      form of old Latin, surely there's better information than this, isn't there?

      David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Mealand
      This is really a question for a Marcion or a Tertullian specialist but no-one has responded as yet. Geoffrey D. Dunn, Tertullian, 2004 pp.20-21 has some
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 3, 2011
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        This is really a question for a Marcion or a
        Tertullian specialist but no-one has responded as yet.

        Geoffrey D. Dunn, Tertullian, 2004 pp.20-21 has some discussion
        of how much Tertullian did or did not use existing Greek or
        Latin texts of the NT and of Marcion. He cites some earlier
        scholarly literature on the two questions.

        It will probably come up by googling Marcion Greek Latin
        but otherwise copy and paste this lengthy item in - if it survives
        the trip around the web:

        http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hErC3tkOPsoC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA172&dq=dunn+tertullian&source=bl&ots=kalYrwtzT3&sig=1ndNs7j47smhIRViFF0zr9nd-IE&hl=en&ei=032yTvCaJ4ar8AOZw6CLBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

        David M.




        ---------
        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


        --
        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
      • Jeff Peterson
        Given that Marcion hailed from Bithynia, and assuming he produced his Gospel edition by ca. 150 in either Asia Minor or Rome, wouldn t the overwhelming
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 3, 2011
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          Given that Marcion hailed from Bithynia, and assuming he produced his
          Gospel edition by ca. 150 in either Asia Minor or Rome, wouldn't the
          overwhelming probability be that he worked in Greek, like Justin?

          Jeff Peterson
          Austin Graduate School of Theology
          Austin, Texas

          On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 7:00 AM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          >
          > This is really a question for a Marcion or a
          > Tertullian specialist but no-one has responded as yet.
          >
          > Geoffrey D. Dunn, Tertullian, 2004 pp.20-21 has some discussion
          > of how much Tertullian did or did not use existing Greek or
          > Latin texts of the NT and of Marcion. He cites some earlier
          > scholarly literature on the two questions.
          >
          > It will probably come up by googling Marcion Greek Latin
          > but otherwise copy and paste this lengthy item in - if it survives
          > the trip around the web:
          >
          >
          > http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hErC3tkOPsoC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA172&dq=dunn+tertullian&source=bl&ots=kalYrwtzT3&sig=1ndNs7j47smhIRViFF0zr9nd-IE&hl=en&ei=032yTvCaJ4ar8AOZw6CLBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
          >
          > David M.
          >
          > ---------
          > David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
          >
          > --
          > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
          > Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
          >
          >
          >


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        • David Mealand
          ... Given that Marcion hailed from Bithynia, and assuming he produced his Gospel edition by ca. 150 in either Asia Minor or Rome, wouldn t the overwhelming
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 3, 2011
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            --------Jeff wrote----
            Given that Marcion hailed from Bithynia, and assuming he produced his
            Gospel edition by ca. 150 in either Asia Minor or Rome, wouldn't the
            overwhelming probability be that he worked in Greek, like Justin?
            ---------------

            That M wrote in Greek is implied in the item I cited. Geoffrey Dunn
            asks whether T had M's Gospel in Greek, and made his own translation
            into Latin, or had it in Latin already. He cites two divergent opinions,
            then seems to favour a "consensus" that T generally made
            his own translations but did use others, and says in the case of Marcion he
            depended at least partly on an existing Latin version.

            David M.

            ---------
            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


            --
            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
          • David Inglis
            I find some of Dunn’s arguments to go beyond what I believe can be stated with any certainty. For example, on p. 20 of the item linked below, he quotes (?)
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 3, 2011
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              I find some of Dunn’s arguments to go beyond what I believe can be stated with any certainty. For example, on p. 20 of the item linked below, he quotes (?) from Alders: “… in some of these cases, Tertullian did not depend upon his Old Latin text slavishly; sometimes he corrected or improved the Latin, obviously with his eye on a Greek text.” Given the relative great paucity of old Latin mss when compared with Greek, I don’t see how anyone could assume that any old Latin ‘quotes’ that do not agree in all details with any existing mss must have been ‘corrected or improved’ towards the Greek readings. It seems to me that all you can really say is that the readings in these ‘quotes’ lie part way between the extant old Latin and Greek mss, and anything relating to how this came about is pure conjecture.



              Dunn also refers to Higgins, who in the conclusion of ‘The Latin Text of Luke in Marcion and Tertullian’ writes:



              1. The many differences in vocabulary between the quotations from Luke in Adv. Marc. IV and in Tertullian's other writings, supported by Tertullian's choice of other words in discussing the passages quoted in Adv. Marc. IV, point to his use of two translations, the Marcionite (M) and the Catholic (T).

              2. The clear European nature of the Latin of the quotations in Adv. Marc. IV compared with Tertullian's other quotations cannot be explained on the hypothesis that he translated all these passages from the Greek himself.

              3. T, while not identical with the Cyprianic text, is much more African than M, and may be regarded as an earlier form of the African translation.

              4. M is quite independent of the African, while its affinities with the European are very marked. Its kinship with the European is, in fact, clearer than that of T with the African.

              5. M, while strongly European in colouring, also possesses some distinctive features, and is to some extent independent of the European translations as well as of the African.



              These conclusions agree exactly with those drawn by von Soden from his similar study of Tertullian's quotations from Paul.



              Higgins’ point 5 basically agrees with what I suggest above, i.e. indicating that the old Latin in M does not always agree with either the European or African old Latin mss, but without going so far as suggesting a reason. However, even if Tertullian did have an old Latin copy of the whole of Marcion’s gospel, this doesn’t tell us much (if anything) about whether the original was in Latin or Greek.

              David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



              From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Mealand
              Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 5:01 AM
              To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Was Marcion's gospel originally in Latin or Greek?

              This is really a question for a Marcion or a Tertullian specialist but no-one has responded as yet.

              Geoffrey D. Dunn, Tertullian, 2004 pp.20-21 has some discussion of how much Tertullian did or did not use existing Greek or Latin texts of the NT and of Marcion. He cites some earlier scholarly literature on the two questions.

              It will probably come up by googling Marcion Greek Latin but otherwise copy and paste this lengthy item in - if it survives the trip around the web:

              http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hErC3tkOPsoC <http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hErC3tkOPsoC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA172&dq=dunn+tertullian&source=bl&ots=kalYrwtzT3&sig=1ndNs7j47smhIRViFF0zr9nd-IE&hl=en&ei=032yTvCaJ4ar8AOZw6CLBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false> &pg=PA21&lpg=PA172&dq=dunn+tertullian&source=bl&ots=kalYrwtzT3&sig=1ndNs7j47smhIRViFF0zr9nd-IE&hl=en&ei=032yTvCaJ4ar8AOZw6CLBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

              David M.

              ---------
              David Mealand, University of Edinburgh



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