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Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark's dependence on Paul

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  • David Mealand
    ... What does this now tell us about [Mk]10:45 ... I would say that it tells us this: This bit of Pauline Atonement belief was added to the text of Mark very
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 10, 2011
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      A recent posting declared:
      ---------------
      What does this now tell us about [Mk]10:45 ...
      I would say that it tells us this:
      This bit of Pauline Atonement belief was added
      to the text of Mark very late in the compositional
      process of Mark.
      ---------------

      I think care should be taken not to confuse
      different categories.

      Mk 10.45 speaks of a ransom and the wider
      biblical context indicates this refers to
      some kind of rescue effected either by the exercise
      of superior power, or by payment.

      Mk 14.24 speaks of the blood of the covenant as
      resulting in a benefit for (the) many. The reference
      is presumably to a covenant initiation or renewal
      sacrifice.

      Rom 3.25 does allude to atonement by means of blood.
      That connects with Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement).
      That is slightly odd as Jesus died close to Passover
      (Spring) and Yom Kippur comes around in the Autumn.

      But my point is that these are three quite different
      ways of understanding how a rescue, or a new covenant,
      or a wiping away of sin might be effected. And the
      Yom Kippur motif is not in Mark at all whether from Paul
      or anywhere else.

      To speak of these in one breath as if they are all
      the same is to ignore "Murdoch's law". Iris Murdoch
      said of philosophy that unless we proceed very slowly
      we will make no progress at all. The same would seem
      to apply to Markan (and Pauline) studies.

      David M.


      ---------
      David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


      --
      The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
      Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
    • Frank Jacks
      Ron, Thanks for reminding me of something I once held, back in the days when I was still enamored by B. W. Bacon s writings, including his take on Mark as the
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 10, 2011
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        Ron,

        Thanks for reminding me of something I once held, back in the days
        when I was still enamored by B. W. Bacon's writings, including his
        take on Mark as "the Pauline gospel," but yes, notice the past tense
        for I have had to give up this approach/insight for a variety of reasons
        most especially (and if nothing else) as this gospel (like the others)
        shows Jesus appointing his successors to authority at time and place
        that does not include Paul! I simply can not envision how anyone so
        dependent upon Paul could have given up what was so crucially central
        to him ... and this is what started me wondering about Mark's being
        "the Pauline gospel," a connection which in fact does not connect up
        well with other ideas/concepts central to Paul's ideology, for example
        his seeing the resurrection as when/where/how Jesus "became the Christ"
        as "the Christological moment" to borrow the happy phrase from Ray
        Brown! We simply do not find any of the distinctively "Pauline" ideas
        or concepts in this gospel but do find many that do not match up with
        what Paul said in his letters. That there were/are some commonalities
        between this gospel and Paul's letters is doubtless true but there are
        other and probably more plausible explanations for these ... at least,
        this is where I now find myself these days. Still, thanks for reminding
        me of positions I once held!
        > As I see it, Mark's dependence on Paul was considerable. It included for
        > instance, extensive use of EUAGGELION (gospel) and PISTEUW (believe), the
        > death of Jesus as atoning (Rom 3:25; 5:8; Mk 10:45); abrogation of food laws
        > (Rom 14:20; Mk 7:19), and assorted negative views of the twelve.
        >
        > Then there is the resurrection of Jesus. This can be regarded as the
        > keystone of Paul's theology (Hering on 1 Cor, p.156, with references to
        > Barth and Menaud). It was a crucial part of Paul's gospel (1 Cor 15:3-5), a
        > gospel which he received by revelation (Gal 1:11-12). So it should be viewed
        > as Paul's inspired creation, and Mark must also have got the idea of the
        > resurrection of Jesus (Mk 8:31 etc.) directly or indirectly from Paul.
        >
        > Ron Price,
        >
        > Derbyshire, UK
        >
        > http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html
        >
        >
        Frank

        Clive F. Jacks, Th.D. [Union Theological Seminary, N.Y.C.]
        Professor Of Religion, Emeritus
        Pikeville College
        Pikeville, KY

        (but now happily retired back home in the metro Atlanta area!)
      • E Bruce Brooks
        To: Synoptic (GPG) In Response To: David Mealand On: The Atonement Doctrine From: Bruce DAVID: Mk 10.45 speaks of a ransom and the wider biblical context
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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          To: Synoptic (GPG)
          In Response To: David Mealand
          On: The Atonement Doctrine
          From: Bruce

          DAVID: Mk 10.45 speaks of a ransom and the wider biblical context indicates
          this refers to some kind of rescue effected either by the exercise of
          superior power, or by payment.

          BRUCE: What "wider Biblical context?" Ransom is how Paul, and the later
          Pauline literature (Titus, Revelation, down to and including 1 Peter) speaks
          of the Atonement doctrine. In the wider context, I continue to find it
          significant that Luke, who does not repeat Mk 10:45 in his own version of
          Mark's Gospel, also does not, in Acts, mention this doctrine as taught by
          Paul; I see a whitewash in both cases. I see an ideologically consistent
          Luke. And more, I see a mid-century doctrinal war in which Luke takes an
          ideologically consistent part.

          Also check the allied economic locution "bought" (1 Cor, 2 Pet), for the
          same doctrine.

          It thus seems to me that Mark in 10:45 is very atypically acknowledging (and
          that Luke in the analogous place is refusing to acknowledge) a doctrine
          which is elsewhere, in Paul and in later Pauline writers, and in the
          contemporary and hostile Epistle of James, associated with Paul. No?

          According to that doctrine, you do not save yourself (by your repentance and
          good actions); Jesus saves you by his death, which buys/ransoms/redeems you
          from your own otherwise inevitable death. Jesus pays your bar tab, and it is
          part of the doctrine that you would never, of your own effort, be able to
          pay your own bar tab. Forget your little good works, your minor abstinences,
          your theological nickels and dimes. Jesus is all.

          Bruce

          E Bruce Brooks
          University of Massachusetts at Amherst
        • Ronald Price
          - - - - - - - Daniel Grolin remarked: None of the parallels you have offered show signs of textual dependence. Daniel, A lot depends on the date of the first
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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            - - - - - - -

            Daniel Grolin remarked:

            None of the parallels you have offered show signs of textual dependence.

            Daniel,

            A lot depends on the date of the first collection of the letters of Paul. I
            think it likely that it was a decade or more after Mark wrote his gospel, in
            which case we should not expect too much in the way of "signs of textual
            dependence".

            - - - - - - -

            David Mealand wrote:

            Mk 10.45 speaks of a ransom .....
            Mk 14.24 speaks of the blood of the covenant .....
            Rom 3.25 does allude to atonement by means of blood. .....

            But my point is that these are three quite different
            ways of understanding how a rescue, or a new covenant,
            or a wiping away of sin might be effected.

            David,

            A modern scholar may well be correct in seeing these interpretations as
            distinctly different, but surely the crucial question here is whether the
            author of the gospel of Mark would have seen them as distinctly different,
            or as essentially the same. For what it¹s worth, my vote would be for the
            latter.

            - - - - - - -

            Frank Jacks wrote:

            ..... this gospel [Mark] (like the others) shows Jesus appointing his
            successors to authority at time and place that does not include Paul!

            Frank,

            Mark's gospel can be viewed as the first attempt to write a biography of
            Jesus. Paul played no part in the life of Jesus. Mark wisely refrained from
            trying to deny this probably widely-known fact, c.f. "... as to one untimely
            born ..." (1 Cor 15:8).

            "... [Paul] seeing the resurrection as when/where/how Jesus "became the
            Christ" as "the Christological moment" to borrow the happy phrase from Ray
            Brown!"

            You've lost me here.

            - - - - - - -

            Ron Price,

            Derbyshire, UK

            http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Daniel Grolin
            Dear Ron,
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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              Dear Ron,

              <<A lot depends on the date of the first collection of the letters of Paul. I think it likely that it was a decade or more after Mark wrote his gospel, in which case we should not expect too much in the way of "signs of textual dependence".>>

              Given that the Synoptics were not written that far apart and this group would not exist if textual dependence was not evident with them, I have to ask, Why?

              My point is that your dependence seems indistinguishable from dependence on common communal lore. How are you making a dependence between texts more plausible?

              Given that even the concepts are not exactly the same it seems tenuous at best. I see different conceptualization behind the common tradition, and am far from convinced that Mark was dependent on Paul.

              Regards,

              Daniel Grolin
              Aarhus, Denmark
            • Stephen Carlson
              Those interested in the issue of Mark s interaction with Paul should consult: Joel Marcus, Mark – Interpreter of Paul . *New Testament Studies* *46*.4
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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                Those interested in the issue of Mark's interaction with Paul should
                consult:

                Joel Marcus,"Mark � Interpreter of Paul". *New Testament Studies* *46*.4
                (2000): 473�487.

                Stephen
                --
                Stephen C. Carlson
                Graduate Program in Religion
                Duke University


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ronald Price
                ... Daniel, The synoptics are inter-dependent, and this is at the level of the texts. So, for instance, the author of Matthew clearly had the text of Mark
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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                  Daniel Grolin wrote:

                  > Given that the Synoptics were not written that far apart and this group would
                  > not exist if textual dependence was not evident with them, I have to ask, Why?
                  >
                  > My point is that your dependence seems indistinguishable from dependence on
                  > common communal lore. How are you making a dependence between texts more
                  > plausible?

                  Daniel,

                  The synoptics are inter-dependent, and this is at the level of the texts.
                  So, for instance, the author of Matthew clearly had the text of Mark
                  accessible to him while he was writing his own gospel.

                  I am not positing such a textual dependence between Mark and Paul's letters,
                  but rather that Mark got his Pauline theology and attitude to the twelve
                  either directly or indirectly from Paul. I should further come clean and say
                  that most of what I am proposing is similar (but not wholly derived from)
                  what Joel Marcus argued in the NTS article mentioned by Stephen Carlson.

                  The distinction I see between dependence on the apostle Paul and mere
                  dependence on communal lore relates to the origin of the ideas enumerated in
                  my original post on this thread. What I am claiming is that these ideas were
                  all originated by Paul, and if so, then Mark almost certainly obtained them
                  (directly or indirectly) from Paul. Of course such a claim is very difficult
                  to substantiate because Paul's genuine epistles constitute our only direct
                  pre-Markan evidence of the theology and attitudes of the followers of Jesus.
                  However (to cut a long story short) I have attempted to reconstruct the
                  original 'logia' of Jesus (see the web page below), and if this
                  reconstruction and its proposed Sitz im Leben are correct, then the
                  above-mentioned ideas were not part of the thinking of the original
                  apostles. This would not prove these ideas originated with Paul, but it
                  would make it much more likely.

                  Ron Price,

                  Derbyshire, UK

                  http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_sQet.html




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Mealand
                  I agree with A: Mark and Paul both use the notions of rescue, and possibly those of purchase or payment. (Mark is not clear on the latter.) I do not agree
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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                    I agree with

                    A: Mark and Paul both use the notions of
                    rescue, and possibly those of purchase or
                    payment. (Mark is not clear on the latter.)

                    I do not agree with

                    B: Mark got from Paul the notion that the
                    crucifixion can be compared with atonement
                    motifs related to Yom Kippur.

                    B goes way beyond A

                    David M.






                    ---------
                    David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                    --
                    The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                    Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                  • E Bruce Brooks
                    To: Synoptic (GPG) In Response To: Daniel Grolin (and Ron Price) On: Mark and Paul From: Bruce One of the problems with the Synoptic Problem is that it can t
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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                      To: Synoptic (GPG)
                      In Response To: Daniel Grolin (and Ron Price)
                      On: Mark and Paul
                      From: Bruce

                      One of the problems with the Synoptic Problem is that it can't be solved
                      without reference to non-Synoptic matters, such as the chronology of Paul,
                      but those matters are technically barred from the "Synoptic" discussion. I
                      think Daniel is right to raise them, however, and I will venture to follow
                      him in exploring them, just a tiny bit.

                      Daniel (to Ron): My point is that your dependence seems indistinguishable
                      from dependence on common communal lore. How are you making a dependence
                      between texts more plausible?

                      Bruce: Proper question. If the doctrine of the Atonement is unique to Paul,
                      then its presence in Mark indicates that at least that passage in Mark is
                      aware of Paul. If the doctrine is more general, then that conclusion does
                      not necessarily follow. We are now interested to know if Paul originated the
                      Atonement doctrine, as a development of the prior Resurrection belief, or if
                      he found it ready to hand. I don't know of any immediate evidence either
                      way. Does anyone? It would be helpful if Paul's earliest extant letter
                      (there is some support for the idea that it is 1 Thess) showed no trace of
                      the doctrine, whereas later ones did. So what is the situation with 1 Thess?
                      That is a more delicate question than one might like.

                      1 Thess: Structure and Date

                      First, as with any text, our question must be: Is this one thing or many?
                      The answer is that it is many, so we can't yet operate with our usual list
                      of interrogations. One undoubted interpolation is 1 Thess 2:13-16 (see
                      Walker 210). This invites a date of post-70 for the text, as likely
                      referring to the destruction of the Temple as a judgement on the Jews (and
                      why else would the writer refer to the churches in Judaea?). OK, we now have
                      two layers, 1 Thess proper (during Paul's lifetime, and most put it in the
                      early 50's), and the later (post-70) passage. Can we say anything more about
                      them? Yes, a certain amount. First, since Paul died in the early 60's, he
                      cannot have gloated over the discomfiture of the Jews in 70. So the
                      interpolation seems dumb. But did everyone think Paul had died in the early
                      60's? No, some believed that he had gone on from Rome to missionarize Spain,
                      and had died only in a second captivity. Is this true? No, because if it
                      were, the Spanish churches would revel in being founded by Paul, but their
                      traditions have been extensively looked into, and the answer is that no such
                      claim was made until centuries later. So we now have two things about this
                      interpolation: it was probably made very soon after 70, since these things
                      are likely to be exploited while they are hot, and it was made by, and
                      addressed to, people who would find it plausible, namely those who believed
                      in the Second Captivity. Do we know of any such people? Yes, they are
                      present behind the Pastorals. They are also present in yet another
                      interpolation: Romans 16, which (in disagreement with Romans 1) states an
                      intention to go to Spain. Then these Second Imprisonment interpolations are
                      spotted throughout the Pauline corpus. Is there a plausible occasion for
                      this? Yes: at the time of their collection into a corpus. OK, we now have
                      reason to think that the corpus was collected after 70, but perhaps not long
                      after 70. Getting back to matters recognizably Synoptic, since Luke knew the
                      Pauline letters (his not quoting them is because they would not serve his
                      purpose in reconfiguring Paul for a kinder and gentler posterity; Acts is a
                      sort of counter to the Pauline Corpus). This puts Acts, and even the first
                      part of it (up to Ac 15:35) in the post-70 column. Meaning that gLk too was
                      not completed (it has been in several places adjusted to Acts II) until
                      after 70. This we knew anyway, since in contrast to Mk (continued in Mt),
                      who only sees Caligula coming, Luke definitely sees Titus coming.

                      Can we get a little more out of this, before passing on? Yeah, 2 Thess. What
                      about 2 Thess, besides the fact that it is a fake and a phony? Precisely
                      this: 2 Thess is intimately modeled on 1 Thess, and among other things, it
                      betrays awareness of the interpolation, 1 Thess 2:13-16. Then we have an
                      even more detailed sequence: (1) 1 Thess (2) Titus in 70 (3) 1 Thess
                      2:13-16. (4) 2 Thess. Among other things, we have just disposed of the
                      theory of a 2nd century Acts, since the sequence here outlined won't permit
                      it. There are other sequences that prove the same thing. Thus, counting up
                      from late to early, 1 Clement (c96) knows 1 Peter, who knows Ephesians, who
                      knows Colossians - itself probably written to preface the original Corpus
                      Paulinum - but who also knows the Ephesian parting scene in Acts II. Notice
                      that this second series not only puts Luke-Acts in the 1st century (remember
                      that the date of 1 Clement is c96), it also puts the first Corpus Paulinum
                      much earlier than the end of that century; so much for the briefly popular
                      Goodspeed theory. To our Synoptic credit, we have now anchored the final
                      state of Luke-Acts with some assurance not long after the year 70. Why not
                      long? Because as a sign of the End, the Titus destruction also fizzled, and
                      the longer you wait to make the claim that it WAS the sign of the end, the
                      more ridiculous you look.

                      Excursus: Luke-Acts

                      Does this give us anything to think about? Maybe. If both the Pauline
                      Collection and, after it, Luke-Acts, are after 70, and since the later of
                      the two, Luke-Acts, is probably not long after 70, then they must have
                      followed rather close on each other. Since the Collection is earlier, might
                      it not have been a sort of stimulus for the final stage of Luke? Luke-Acts
                      is revisionist as to Paul, whenever it was written, but it may more
                      specifically have been revisionist as to the picture of Paul which was
                      painted, and above all made more powerful for the reading public, by the
                      gathering of all Paul's letters into one huge bombshell. Against this
                      explosion on the right (Paul, the hater of earlier kinds of Christians, the
                      great divisive force in contemporary theology), may not Luke-Acts in their
                      final form have been a countering salvo from the left? A word for peace, and
                      not for further escalating the fierce theological arguments which seem to
                      crop up wherever Paul treads?

                      I venture to suggest it.

                      1 Thess: Doctrine

                      Now back to the Atonement, but this time with leaks repaired and all hands
                      alert. Does the original 1 Thess, the thing with a fair claim to reflect
                      Paul as of the time of writing, hold the Atonement doctrine? Perhaps not
                      very conspicuously. Most of it, including the Gospel of God part (several
                      times repeated), and the advice about good and bad actions (with the
                      implication that good or bad actions make a difference), could easily pass
                      for what I have called an Alpha epistle. The only line in which Jesus seems
                      to be given a role in salvation is, I think, 1 Thess 1:10, "and to wait for
                      his Son from Heaven, whom he raised from the dead; Jesus, who delivers us
                      from the wrath to come." And just how does he do this? That is the question.


                      Now we get the commentators. I have not many to hand, but: (1) Neil 1950;
                      nothing either way. (2) Bailey 1955; uses "redemption" in his paraphrase,
                      but not really in his argument. Perhaps a natural reflex? (3) Best 1972;
                      "Taken together, these facts indicate that we have a pre-Pauline statement
                      of the Church;'s faith; others have been identified; in 1 Cor 15:3-5 Paul
                      clearly states that he is using one. The evidence in our present case is
                      reinforced when we observe that 1:9b, 10 can be set out in two three-line
                      stanzas:

                      You turned to God from idols
                      to serve the living and real God
                      (and to wait for his Son out of Heaven
                      Whom he raised from the dead:
                      Jesus, who delivers us
                      from the approaching anger

                      . . . if this is a pre-Pauline fragment, where did it originate? Several
                      things suggest that its provenance was Jewish-Christian rather than
                      Gentile-Christian . . . Munck denies that Paul would have used this as a
                      formula since the cross is not central to it . . . Rejecting Munck's
                      argument, we note more generally that Paul could use traditional formulae
                      which are not wholly in agreement with his own theology . . . (4) Bruce
                      1982, "This is not exclusively Paul's report; it summarizes the Thessalonian
                      Christians' response to the preaching of his colleagues and himself
                      together, and represents teaching which they held in common with other
                      Christian leaders of the first generation." And, "This is the only place in
                      the Thessalonian letters where Jesus is called the Son of God."

                      I think that Best has it about right, pretty much seconded by Bruce. The
                      passage in question no more requires the assumption of an Atonement
                      (redeeming sacrifice) doctrine than does the Eucharistic formula in the
                      Didache, or the Hymn in Philippians 2 (this one IS a real hymn; I think that
                      in 1 Thess Paul is not quoting a new hymn - the direct address is against it
                      - but influenced by the Philippians 2 hymn, or by things in that same
                      category). It is then the judgement of our critics, except perhaps for
                      Bailey, that 1 Thess as it stands is innocent of Atonement preaching,
                      leaving the possibility that, as Best says, Paul is here being eclectic and
                      ecumenical, and articulating the common ground rather than pushing his more
                      distinctive beliefs.

                      Then the answer to our large question is most likely this: Paul personally
                      held the Atonement doctrine throughout the period for which we have the
                      witness of his letters. The doctrine thus arose prior to c50, and was
                      accepted by Paul as of that time. Who thought it up, and when, does not
                      appear. But we are not entitled to refer its creation to a date later than
                      50. It is most likely pre-50.

                      Mk 10:45, the passage in which a clear mention of the Atonement doctrine
                      occurs, is also a prediction of the death of James (and maybe John) Zebedee,
                      an event which happened in c44. The Mk passage, the latest firmly datable
                      one in Mk, might then be from any time after that, as a cautious working
                      first guess say c45. This puts Mark's acknowledgement of the Atonement
                      doctrine into the time frame when, as we have just seen, that doctrine
                      probably arose. Nothing so far proves that Paul himself originated it,
                      merely that, throughout the documented part of his life, he held it. Then
                      its presence in Mark is right on time, chronologically speaking, but
                      ambiguous as to specific Pauline influence. It may instead be just influence
                      from the latest thing, theologically speaking. Paul need not be involved, at
                      least not at the origin.

                      This is perhaps a long way of agreeing with Daniel's caution about a generic
                      rather than a Pauline Atonement doctrine, but perhaps it may contribute
                      something to underline that caution.

                      AUTHORSHIP OF MARK

                      Daniel: Given that even the concepts are not exactly the same it seems
                      tenuous at best. I see different conceptualization behind the common
                      tradition, and am far from convinced that Mark was dependent on Paul.

                      Bruce: I still think that "dependent" is a misleading way to state the
                      alternatives. But that the touch of Atonement theory in gMk is not a
                      guarantee of contact with Paul still seems the way to go. On the other hand,
                      it doesn't RULE OUT contact with Paul. Thinking now of one possible author
                      of gMk, namely jMk (John Mark of Jerusalem), do we know that Paul had
                      visited Jerusalem? Never mind Acts, which is assimilating everything to
                      everything else as fast it can; consider Paul. He says so, and therefore he
                      probably did (that would not be Paul's kind of lie). jMk, in his role as
                      aMk, is also thought to have had contact with Peter, and gotten some
                      material from him. Could that have occurred in Jerusalem, with jMk still
                      living at home? Sure; Paul mentions he met Peter in Jerusalem. About when
                      was that? Well, for starters, probably not after the Agrippa I persecution
                      (and the death of James Zebedee) in c44, so maybe 43 or at earliest early
                      44. How old was jMk at that time? Well, suppose he was a teenager at the
                      time he appears as a cameo in his own text, the naked young man in the
                      Arrest scene (and he writes Peter as a sort of Hero of Persistence a little
                      later in that chapter). That was 30, so in, let us say, early 44, jMk would
                      have been, oh, maybe in his early thirties. Paul, around the same age as
                      Jesus, and for that matter of Peter, maybe around 45. jMk will then have
                      been young enough to be impressed, but also old enough to embark on a voyage
                      of his own. Did he go to join Paul? Acts says so, and dates it around this
                      time. Did Luke (assuming for a moment that he was the author of Acts) know
                      Mark? He had read aMk's book. Did he know the actual guy, or anyway, facts
                      about him? That would be spooky. But not impossible. If he had known jMk,
                      and wanted to subtly plonk him before the readers of the future, how might
                      he have proceeded? He might have acknowledged jMk as at one point going to
                      join Paul, but then showing how he washed out as a missionary, and how Paul
                      would have nothing further to do with him. Now, Mk's theology was
                      unacceptable to Luke, since Luke took Mark's book as his own basis, but
                      subtly censored and rewrote and vastly extended it, . . .

                      Well, anyway. I hate this stuff, since the Mark Authorship thing always
                      looked weak to me. My present problem is that the more I go into it
                      (including the Gerasa bit; that was a shock), the more it looks like the
                      literal jMk scenario after all has quite a bit going for it.

                      Well, you can't win them all, I guess.

                      Bruce

                      E Bruce Brooks
                      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
                    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                      Ron: I am having some trouble with this. First, what evidence do you have that would point to a) dependence on Paul, or even b) that Paul invented the key
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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                        Ron:

                        I am having some trouble with this. First, what evidence do you have that would point to a) dependence on Paul, or even b) that Paul invented the key idea of resurrection (or atonement)? I just don't know where you would go to find supporting evidence for either of these, but especially not the latter.

                        But beyond that, I would really like to explore the key issue of atonement. Is Mark's language of "ransom" really the same as Paul's idea? And I am not convinced that Paul even has a clear atonement idea, certainly not the "propitiation" or "substitution" approach. The issue of hilasterion, and even the syntax of the sentence in Rom 3:34-35 is notoriously difficult and subject to various readings. And Rom. 5:8 simply says Christ died for us (huper hmwm), and we are justified in/by his blood.

                        I think the linkage you point to here, at least, has to assume a theology of atonement for both Paul (which is rightly subject to great debate), and to impute a similar theology on the gospels where it seems to me to be almost absent.

                        Ron Price wrote:
                        >
                        > I am not positing such a textual dependence between Mark and Paul's
                        > letters, but rather that Mark got his Pauline theology and attitude to the
                        > twelve either directly or indirectly from Paul. I should further come clean and
                        > say that most of what I am proposing is similar (but not wholly derived from)
                        > what Joel Marcus argued in the NTS article mentioned by Stephen Carlson.

                        ... and in a previous post:
                        >As I see it, Mark's dependence on Paul was considerable. It included for instance, extensive use of EUAGGELION (gospel) and >PISTEUW (believe), the death of Jesus as atoning (Rom 3:25; 5:8; Mk 10:45); abrogation of food laws (Rom 14:20; Mk 7:19), and >assorted negative views of the twelve.

                        >Then there is the resurrection of Jesus. This can be regarded as the keystone of Paul's theology (Hering on 1 Cor, p.156, with >references to Barth and Menaud). It was a crucial part of Paul's gospel (1 Cor 15:3-5), a gospel which he received by revelation (Gal >1:11-12). So it should be viewed as Paul's inspired creation, and Mark must also have got the idea of the resurrection of Jesus (Mk >8:31 etc.) directly or indirectly from Paul.


                        Mark A. Matson
                        Academic Dean
                        Milligan College
                        423-461-8720
                        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                      • Bob Schacht
                        ... Paul had virtually no direct knowledge of the person of Jesus of Nazareth. He was traveling among people who, likewise, had no direct knowledge of Jesus.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 11, 2011
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                          At 11:01 AM 10/11/2011, E Bruce Brooks wrote:


                          >[snip]
                          >
                          >Daniel (to Ron): My point is that your dependence seems indistinguishable
                          >from dependence on common communal lore. How are you making a dependence
                          >between texts more plausible?
                          >
                          >Bruce: Proper question. If the doctrine of the Atonement is unique to Paul,
                          >then its presence in Mark indicates that at least that passage in Mark is
                          >aware of Paul. If the doctrine is more general, then that conclusion does
                          >not necessarily follow. We are now interested to know if Paul originated the
                          >Atonement doctrine, as a development of the prior Resurrection belief, or if
                          >he found it ready to hand. I don't know of any immediate evidence either
                          >way. ...

                          Paul had virtually no direct knowledge of the person of Jesus of
                          Nazareth. He was traveling among people who, likewise, had no direct
                          knowledge of Jesus. Furthermore, Jesus did not leave behind a "Guide
                          to my crucifixion and resurrection: meaning and interpretation." The
                          closest thing we have any inkling of is the Markan tradition,
                          repeated a number of times-- e.g. Mark 8, "31 And he began to teach
                          them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by
                          the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and
                          after three days rise again."

                          IIRC, that's about all that Jesus had to say, according to our
                          sources, about his own death and resurrection.
                          So, I rather imagine that Paul had a good many discussions with many
                          people about the meaning of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
                          Furthermore, I suspect that the idea of the atonement took shape and
                          evolved during Paul's lifetime, as he tried to make sense of Jesus'
                          life and death (and resurrection.) And, of course, Paul was not alone
                          in this effort. But I doubt that Jesus had such conversations with
                          Peter or his brother James, unless it was at the "first Apostolic
                          Conference" in Jerusalem.

                          In other words, although Paul may have had a role in shaping the
                          debate, I doubt that it sprung fully formed from his forehead.

                          But most of the analysis taking place here is based on literary
                          sources, so we will probably never know the details of how the
                          doctrine of the atonement developed and came into being. I think the
                          differences between Mark and Paul indicates that the early Christians
                          were kicking the idea around, but had not yet put the idea in writing.

                          Bob Schacht
                          Northern Arizona University






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David Mealand
                          Ron replied ... Mk 10.45 speaks of a ransom ..... Mk 14.24 speaks of the blood of the covenant ..... Rom 3.25 does allude to atonement by means of blood. .....
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 12, 2011
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                            Ron replied
                            ----------------
                            Mk 10.45 speaks of a ransom .....
                            Mk 14.24 speaks of the blood of the covenant .....
                            Rom 3.25 does allude to atonement by means of blood. .....

                            A modern scholar may well be correct in seeing these interpretations as
                            distinctly different, but surely the crucial question here is whether the
                            author of the gospel of Mark would have seen them as distinctly different,
                            or as essentially the same. For what it¹s worth, my vote would be for the
                            latter.
                            -------------------

                            Not at all. Some-one in the 1st Century of the Common Era is MUCH
                            more likely to have known the difference between a covenant and Yom Kippur.
                            People now can't differentiate these because a) they struggle with
                            understanding the Jewish context b) they view the whole matter down
                            a couple of millennia of amalgamating several diverse motifs into various
                            later syntheses in which the originally separate analogies have lost
                            their identity and individuality.

                            David M.


                            ---------
                            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                            --
                            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                          • Ronald Price
                            I had written: A modern scholar may well be correct in seeing these interpretations as distinctly different, but surely the crucial question here is whether
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 12, 2011
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                              I had written:

                              A modern scholar may well be correct in seeing these interpretations as
                              distinctly different, but surely the crucial question here is whether the
                              author of the gospel of Mark would have seen them as distinctly different,
                              or as essentially the same. For what it¹s worth, my vote would be for the
                              latter.

                              David Mealand replied:

                              Not at all. Some-one in the 1st Century of the Common Era is MUCH
                              more likely to have known the difference between a covenant and Yom Kippur.
                              .....

                              David,

                              I was not referring to "some-one" in general, but to the author of Mark's
                              gospel in particular. Yes, he lived in the 1st century. But we know a fair
                              amount about him through what he wrote. Let's consider the following case.

                              "... all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands" (Mk 7:3)
                              Morna Hooker says this statement is untrue. So much for Mark's knowledge of
                              Jewish affairs - unless of course you would challenge her assessment on the
                              basis that she is viewing the whole matter down a couple of millennia!

                              I concede that this is only one example. You may be able to come up with
                              counter-examples from elsewhere in Mark.

                              Ron Price,

                              Derbyshire, UK

                              http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Ronald Price
                              ... Mark, I ve already given a partial answer to this in my reply to Daniel Grolin, to the effect that these ideas were not in the logia, which I attribute to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                Mark Matson wrote:

                                > I am having some trouble with this. First, what evidence do you have that
                                > would point to a) dependence on Paul, or even b) that Paul invented the key
                                > idea of resurrection (or atonement)? I just don't know where you would go to
                                > find supporting evidence for either of these, but especially not the latter.

                                Mark,

                                I've already given a partial answer to this in my reply to Daniel Grolin, to
                                the effect that these ideas were not in the logia, which I attribute to the
                                original apostles.

                                One further point is worth adding. Paul is the only follower of Jesus we
                                know who was not one of the original apostles, who died before the gospels
                                were written, and who also clearly had the intellect and boldness to come up
                                with ideas/interpretations which must have seemed like heresy to many of his
                                fellow Jews, yet become the theological foundation of a major new religion.

                                ..... I would really like to explore the key issue of atonement .....

                                In addition to my responses to David Mealand, I would argue that Mk 14:22-24
                                has to be dependent (directly or indirectly) on Paul (1 Cor 11:23-26). "from
                                the Lord" (APO TOU KURIOU), especially in the light of Gal 1:11-12, should
                                be taken as meaning "by revelation" in view of the fact that Paul had never
                                met the historical Jesus. If the historical Jesus had initiated the
                                statement about his blood of the covenant being poured out "for you", it
                                makes little sense to *follow* this (as in Mark) with a plea to escape
                                (14:36) the solemn commitment he has just made. In any case from a
                                historical viewpoint, Jesus could hardly have formulated a ritual which is
                                based on his (at that time) future death. The ritual must surely have been
                                devised in retrospect by an early Christian wanting to present a particular
                                interpretation of his death. Paul is by far the most likely source of such a
                                magnificent interpretation. Thus Mk 14:22-24 probably derives from Paul.

                                Ron Price,

                                Derbyshire, UK

                                http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Frank Jacks
                                Instead of jumping in with a comment about some of the details raised in this continuing discussion, I wish to back-track to what might be a root cause for
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                  Instead of jumping in with a comment about some of the details
                                  raised in this continuing discussion, I wish to back-track to what
                                  might be a root cause for some of the differing opinions which have
                                  been being posted here, for I notice that in your response to Bruce
                                  that you made a statement that might well be a premise for your
                                  position/statements (???). At least, I do have a question about
                                  something you said:
                                  > BRUCE: Notice (just for starters) the first use of this term ["gospel"]
                                  > within Mark proper, 1:14. "Now after Jesus was arrested, Jesus came into
                                  > Galilee, preaching the Gospel of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and
                                  > the Kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe in the Gospel." Notice
                                  > that there is nothing here about any Gospel of Jesus; it is all about God.
                                  >
                                  > RON: Paul used the strange phrase "gospel of God" (1 Th 2:2; Rom 1:1;
                                  > 15:16), and as you have pointed out, Mark used it (Mk 1:14). It seems to me
                                  > very likely that Mark had heard Paul use the phrase, especially if, as I
                                  > believe, the Mark of Phm 24 was the author of the gospel of Mark.
                                  I wonder whether your suspicion that the author of the second gospel
                                  was the "Mark of Phm 24" is the basis for your having sought for
                                  confirmation by finding ideas/images/concepts/vocabulary in Mark
                                  that seem to be derived from Paul or whether it was finding in this
                                  gospel what seemed to you to be such ideas/images/concepts/vocabulary
                                  distinctively "Pauline" that led you to conclude that it was written by
                                  someone who had knowledge about Paul, perhaps the "Mark of Phm
                                  24" (???).

                                  Are you aware of a logical or psychological sequence between these
                                  two?

                                  Thanks,

                                  Frank

                                  Clive F. Jacks, Th.D. (Union Seminary, N.Y.C.)
                                  Professor Of Religion, Emeritus
                                  Pikeville College,
                                  Pikeville, KY

                                  (but now happily retired back home in the metro Atlanta area!)
                                • Dennis
                                  Ronald said, in part, Paul is the only follower of Jesus we know who was not one of the original apostles, who died before the gospels were written, and who
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                    Ronald said, in part, "Paul is the only follower of Jesus we
                                    know who was not one of the original apostles, who died before the gospels
                                    were written, and who also clearly had the intellect and boldness to come up
                                    with ideas/interpretations which must have seemed like heresy to many of his
                                    fellow Jews, yet become the theological foundation of a major new religion."

                                    Is this is assumption based on history or on the Christian mythology that grew around the "letters?" We read hardly anything about the letters (just a few patristic statements) until the end of the second century, and those as reactions to Marcionism and various Gnostic Christianities. At the same time, I haven't found any early (first through third century, perhaps) non-Christian references about "Paul" yet. (I would love to know of one.)
                                    Dennis Dean Carpenter
                                    Dahlonega, Ga.




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Ronald Price
                                    ... Frank, It was after concluding that both Phm and Mark were written in Rome, and knowing that tradition ascribed the gospel to Mark , that it seemed
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                      On 12/10/2011 17:08, "Frank Jacks" <cfjacks@...> wrote:

                                      > I wonder whether your suspicion that the author of the second gospel was the
                                      > "Mark of Phm 24" is the basis for your having sought for confirmation by
                                      > finding ideas/images/concepts/vocabulary in Mark that seem to be derived from
                                      > Paul or whether it was finding in this gospel what seemed to you to be such
                                      > ideas/images/concepts/vocabulary distinctively "Pauline" that led you to
                                      > conclude that it was written by someone who had knowledge about Paul, perhaps
                                      > the "Mark of Phm 24" (???).
                                      >
                                      Frank,

                                      It was after concluding that both Phm and Mark were written in Rome, and
                                      knowing that tradition ascribed the gospel to "Mark", that it seemed natural
                                      to put all these together and conclude that the Mark of Phm 24 was probably
                                      the Mark who wrote the gospel. My discovery of Pauline characteristics in
                                      Mark was in no way dependent on the connection with Phm 24. But the two do
                                      seem to tie in nicely together.

                                      Ron Price,

                                      Derbyshire, UK

                                      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Ronald Price
                                      I had written: Paul is the only follower of Jesus we ... Dennis, My statement is based on what little we know from the NT about the pre-70 CE followers of
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                        I had written:

                                        Paul is the only follower of Jesus we
                                        > know who was not one of the original apostles, who died before the gospels
                                        > were written, and who also clearly had the intellect and boldness to come up
                                        > with ideas/interpretations which must have seemed like heresy to many of his
                                        > fellow Jews, yet become the theological foundation of a major new religion.

                                        Dennis Carpenter replied:

                                        > Is this is assumption based on history or on the Christian mythology that grew
                                        > around the "letters?"

                                        Dennis,

                                        My statement is based on what little we know from the NT about the pre-70 CE
                                        followers of Jesus.

                                        Ron Price,

                                        Derbyshire, UK

                                        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • David Mealand
                                        I don t wish just to critique a view so here is an alternative. Mark and Paul both have passages which connect the death of Jesus with ideas of covenant and
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                          I don't wish just to critique a view so here is an alternative.

                                          Mark and Paul both have passages which connect the death of Jesus
                                          with ideas of covenant and the shedding of blood. Given that a covenant
                                          creates or maintains a bond between those who participate, and
                                          involved a shared meal after a sacrifice, one can get some idea of how
                                          this analogy is working.

                                          So Mark and Paul share this motif. Also it may not be the oldest part
                                          of the supper tradition; the eschatological words about not eating the
                                          passover
                                          (again) until the coming of the Kingdom are probably the oldest.
                                          So did Paul invent the motif, and did Mark derive it from Paul? That is far
                                          from clear. For that one would have to argue "my blood of the covenant"
                                          is an adaptation of "the new covenant in my blood". I think I would
                                          find it hard to be convinced of that, and would be more inclined
                                          to think that someone before Paul produced a "cup word", to match
                                          the "bread word". The "bread word" might fit with the use of
                                          interpretative words at first Jewish, then Christian Passover meals.
                                          (What did the followers
                                          of Jesus do after the crucifixion when the next Passover came along?)
                                          I may be making some extended inferences here, and I would be more
                                          definite about thinking it likely that Mark and Paul have similar motifs
                                          about the covenant because they each get them from something which
                                          developed between c.34CE (=33+1) and the time Paul writes to Corinth.

                                          By "Mark" I mean a text that is attributed to someone called Mark, I do
                                          not mean that everything in the text was either all created by Mark or all
                                          derived from tradition. I think in the text of Mark we have some
                                          tradition which reflects the use of one or more Semitic languages - on
                                          this E.C.Maloney,
                                          Semitic Interference in Marcan Syntax, did careful work, and more recently
                                          P.M. Casey made a vigorous case for Aramaisms. I would not rule
                                          out Mark having some awareness of Paul, but I am fairly confident
                                          that Mark contains a mixture of material, some of it from the time of Jesus,
                                          some from the period before Paul's letters, and some from any time up to
                                          around 75CE.

                                          One final issue: Mark has two passages which interpret the death of
                                          Jesus. One
                                          flags up the "rescue at the cost of a life" motif, the other a covenant bond
                                          focused on a shared sacrificial meal. Why do we have these two only
                                          in this text when others e.g. Pauline & Deutero-Pauline texts and
                                          Hebrews have further
                                          motifs not found here?

                                          David M.





                                          ---------
                                          David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                                          --
                                          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                                          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                                        • E Bruce Brooks
                                          To: Synoptic (GPG) In Response To: Bob Schacht On: Paul and Atonement From: Bruce BOB: Paul had virtually no direct knowledge of the person of Jesus of
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 13, 2011
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                                            To: Synoptic (GPG)
                                            In Response To: Bob Schacht
                                            On: Paul and Atonement
                                            From: Bruce

                                            BOB: Paul had virtually no direct knowledge of the person of Jesus of
                                            Nazareth.

                                            BRUCE: According to 2Cor 5:16 and other places, Paul was aware of knowledge
                                            of Jesus "after the flesh," but determined not to pay attention to it;
                                            everything for Paul is in Jesus's death. What I get here is not exactly
                                            ignorance but resistance. He does not accept what the direct-knowledge
                                            people say about Jesus during his lifetime.

                                            BOB: He was traveling among people who, likewise, had no direct knowledge
                                            of Jesus.

                                            BRUCE: Depends how far Jesus traveled, and how far the Jesus missionaries
                                            had traveled, before Jesus's death. My impression (from Mark) is that the
                                            range went well into Syria, quite possibly Damascus though less likely
                                            Antioch. Ignoring the Jerusalem-centered career of Paul as a Lukan fiction
                                            (undertaken for the best of reasons, but still a fiction), it is not
                                            necessarily impossible that Paul's first persecutions were among people who
                                            had been reached by those with direct knowledge of Jesus before his death.

                                            BOB: Furthermore, Jesus did not leave behind a "Guide to my crucifixion and
                                            resurrection: meaning and interpretation." The closest thing we have any
                                            inkling of is the Markan tradition, repeated a number of times-- e.g. Mark
                                            8, "31 And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many
                                            things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes,
                                            and be killed, and after three days rise again."

                                            BRUCE: Problem is that one of those predictions is interpolated, which
                                            impugns the whole set. If we follow out the implications, it means that
                                            Jesus's death was unexpected by him and his followers. There is a good deal
                                            of evidence in support; I have previously referred to Yarbro Collins (whose
                                            reconstruction of the original Passion Narrative lacks a Burial and
                                            Resurrection narrative altogether, also Peter Kirby's study of the earliest
                                            tradition of Jesus's death. Then just as the Markan predictions of Jesus's
                                            resurrection are textually secondary, so is the Markan account of Jesus's
                                            resurrection. They are not biographical facts, they are later church
                                            theories, put into Mark's narrative as facts, but not what Mark originally
                                            reported as facts. Mark's gospel ended triumphantly, to be sure, but it was
                                            not that kind of triumph.

                                            BOB: IIRC, that's about all that Jesus had to say, according to our sources,
                                            about his own death and resurrection.

                                            BRUCE: I agree, and I note that it comes to nothing. Jesus had no
                                            presentiment of his death. It suited later believers to think that he had,
                                            but that is a different question.

                                            BOB: So, I rather imagine that Paul had a good many discussions with many
                                            people about the meaning of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

                                            BRUCE: The big event here, I would think, is the impression of Peter and
                                            after him a few others, that Jesus had appeared to them after his death,
                                            giving them assurance that he was, if not still alive "after the flesh" at
                                            least operative in the world. Mk 14:28 and 16:7 make Jesus predict that this
                                            vision will occur, but again, these happen to be the two most obvious
                                            interpolations in Mark, accepted by many as such, though not everyone cares
                                            to explore the implications very far. The implications are that the
                                            reappearance of Jesus was unexpected by those who had that vision, just as
                                            Jesus's death was unexpected by himself.

                                            As for Paul, he himself confines his knowledge to a vision of his own, plus
                                            a few days, later on, with Peter. We should not imagine Paul as at first
                                            curious about Jesus; rather, according to his own account, he hated Jesus
                                            and all that his early followers stood for, as an offense against Jewish
                                            doctrine, and sought to kill them all he could. It was his experience of the
                                            vision, however you visualize it (and Paul visualizes it rather differently
                                            than Luke, a thing we have come to expect from Luke), that turned him
                                            around. More or less literally.

                                            BOB: Furthermore, I suspect that the idea of the atonement took shape and
                                            evolved during Paul's lifetime, as he tried to make sense of Jesus' life
                                            and death (and resurrection.)

                                            BRUCE: Not Paul, but the Jesus followers after Jesus's unexpected death. And
                                            in several stages. First no resurrection, then the idea of a resurrection,
                                            and probably quite a bit later, the reading of an Atonement idea into the
                                            resurrection (the sacrificial interpretation of Jesus's death).

                                            BOB: And, of course, Paul was not alone in this effort.

                                            BRUCE: He was not part of it; see above. And among the Jesus followers, some
                                            stood apart from it, and were content to continue to follow Jesus as a
                                            John-the-Baptist style guide to salvation.

                                            BOB: . . . But I doubt that Jesus had such conversations with Peter or his
                                            brother James, unless it was at the "first Apostolic Conference" in
                                            Jerusalem.

                                            BRUCE: Agreed that no such conversations were held, by anybody, during
                                            Jesus's lifetime. The problem with which any such conversations dealt did
                                            not arise until after Jesus's death. Nor is it necessarily valid to imagine
                                            a "democratic" model of Jesus theory, as arising from the reasoning together
                                            of people on the same authority level. The resurrection was, for a short
                                            time, an idea held only by Peter, later by a few other select persons, but
                                            all of them persons having stature in the movement, not just some Eddie from
                                            Chorazin. I think we are on statistically better ground in imagining these
                                            doctrines as arising among persons of some authority in the movement. As far
                                            as the Resurrection goes, the finger of anecdotal evidence seems to point to
                                            Peter. Which makes it that much more logical that the early Paul would seek
                                            him out for a first-hand account of that experience.

                                            BOB: In other words, although Paul may have had a role in shaping the
                                            debate, I doubt that it sprung fully formed from his forehead.

                                            BRUCE: Paul did not invent the Resurrection, a concept which arose among
                                            Jesus's early followers already in the early Thirties. We have not so far
                                            succeeded in finding anyone but Paul who held the Atonement interpretation
                                            of Jesus's death, but we have pushed its emergence back behind his first
                                            literary leavings, and thus into the Forties. This, as it happens, coincides
                                            with the probable date at which at least one of the two places in Mark which
                                            reflect that doctrine entered the text of Mark, namely, the middle Forties.
                                            So either Paul thought of it, or someone else about that time thought of it.

                                            Who might have thought of it? Someone with a deep sense of the meaning of
                                            sacrifice, that is, the idea that an evil in one place can translate into a
                                            good in another place. No one familiar with soldierly tradition will find
                                            this at all strange, but we seem not to be dealing here with soldiers; more
                                            likely priests. The priests were especially thick in Jerusalem, and it may
                                            be that the doctrine arose among the Jesus followers in Jerusalem; they
                                            would also have been the ones to benefit most from it, in terms of authority
                                            contests with others of light and leading in the movement, especially the
                                            Galilean leaders. Also consider the tourist trade: On Mark's account, both
                                            the preaching of Jesus and the reappearance of Jesus took place Galilee, but
                                            as to the DEATH of Jesus, well, on that the Jerusalemers have an absolute
                                            monopoly. The more the DEATH of Jesus can be developed as central to the
                                            meaning of Jesus, the more the Jerusalemers stand to acquire standing as
                                            those on the scene. That is speculative (though not unreasonable). What
                                            about confirmation? Do we see hints in the record of conflicts of authority
                                            between Jerusalem and Galilee? Wow, do we ever; both Luke and Matthew (and
                                            who copied from whom it is not now necessary to adjudicate) make Jesus side
                                            with the Jerusalemers, and curse the churches of Galilee, above all the
                                            probably leading church of Capernaum. So yes, there was an authority war.
                                            And Matthew and Luke, in some order, were on the Jerusalem side of it.

                                            If the idea arose in Jerusalem, then Paul of Tarsus, whose activities were
                                            confined to the north, did not invent it. If he did not invent it, it must,
                                            when it reached him, have been very agreeable to his sensibilities. Since
                                            Paul was a strict Pharisee, the idea of sacrifice, though perhaps not at the
                                            surface of his consciousness, will have been underneath there somewhere, a
                                            unifying concept ready to be activated by a sufficient stimulus. I here wish
                                            to suggest that contact with the Jerusalem Atonement idea may have been that
                                            stimulus. Now, have we any grounds for thinking that Paul visited Jerusalem
                                            sometime in the middle Forties? Yes, we do. Paul dates just such a visit,
                                            and identifies it as dealing with questions of doctrine, in the fourteenth
                                            year of his conversion. Now, these figures have caused endless worry among
                                            the Paul researchers; they cannot quite be made to jibe with reason or with
                                            other evidence. I suggest that they can be reconciled if we regard Paul as
                                            having (a little inaccurately, but in order not to postdate by too much the
                                            revelations to Peter and the Twelve) inwardly dated his vision of Jesus to
                                            the year of Jesus's death, 30. If so, then his doctrinal visit to Jerusalem
                                            will have been in the year 44. Again, we have a convergence of evidence for
                                            the Atonement doctrine, both Pauline and Markan, in the middle Forties.

                                            BOB: But most of the analysis taking place here is based on literary
                                            sources, so we will probably never know the details of how the doctrine of
                                            the atonement developed and came into being. I think the differences between
                                            Mark and Paul indicates that the early Christians were kicking the idea
                                            around, but had not yet put the idea in writing.

                                            BRUCE: I think its first appearance in writing is the late interpolations in
                                            Mark already referred to. Now we can notice that Mark (according to
                                            persistent anecdotal tradition) was a Jerusalemer. Certainty in detail is
                                            not available in these matters, but I think we have a general chronology
                                            that pretty much works. Then the idea arose in Jerusalem, and existed there
                                            by 44. Mark, who had not originally held it, came to be impressed byh it,
                                            and stuck it in at a couple places in his previously written Gospel, one of
                                            the places being necessarily written shortly after 44. Paul, who visited
                                            Jerusalem in 44, may have picked it up at that time.

                                            As for names and faces, there is more to be done with the exact sequence of
                                            things before and after the execution of Jim Zebedee, but perhaps not very
                                            conveniently in this message.

                                            Bruce

                                            E Bruce Brooks
                                            University of Massachusetts at Amherst

                                            Copyright C 2011 by E Bruce Brooks
                                          • Bob Schacht
                                            ... Yes. And therefore, his knowledge was indirect, not direct. Since your point-counterpoint goes on in the same manner, I ll let you have the last word. Bob
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 13, 2011
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                                              At 04:15 AM 10/13/2011, E Bruce Brooks wrote:
                                              >To: Synoptic (GPG)
                                              >In Response To: Bob Schacht
                                              >On: Paul and Atonement
                                              >From: Bruce
                                              >
                                              >BOB: Paul had virtually no direct knowledge of the person of Jesus of
                                              >Nazareth.
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: According to 2Cor 5:16 and other places, Paul was aware of knowledge
                                              >of Jesus "after the flesh," but determined not to pay attention to it;
                                              >everything for Paul is in Jesus's death. What I get here is not exactly
                                              >ignorance but resistance. He does not accept what the direct-knowledge
                                              >people say about Jesus during his lifetime....

                                              Yes. And therefore, his knowledge was indirect, not direct. Since
                                              your point-counterpoint goes on in the same manner, I'll let you have
                                              the last word.

                                              Bob Schacht
                                              Northern Arizona University




                                              >BOB: He was traveling among people who, likewise, had no direct knowledge
                                              >of Jesus.
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: Depends how far Jesus traveled, and how far the Jesus missionaries
                                              >had traveled, before Jesus's death. My impression (from Mark) is that the
                                              >range went well into Syria, quite possibly Damascus though less likely
                                              >Antioch. Ignoring the Jerusalem-centered career of Paul as a Lukan fiction
                                              >(undertaken for the best of reasons, but still a fiction), it is not
                                              >necessarily impossible that Paul's first persecutions were among people who
                                              >had been reached by those with direct knowledge of Jesus before his death.
                                              >
                                              >BOB: Furthermore, Jesus did not leave behind a "Guide to my crucifixion and
                                              >resurrection: meaning and interpretation." The closest thing we have any
                                              >inkling of is the Markan tradition, repeated a number of times-- e.g. Mark
                                              >8, "31 And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many
                                              >things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes,
                                              >and be killed, and after three days rise again."
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: Problem is that one of those predictions is interpolated, which
                                              >impugns the whole set. If we follow out the implications, it means that
                                              >Jesus's death was unexpected by him and his followers. There is a good deal
                                              >of evidence in support; I have previously referred to Yarbro Collins (whose
                                              >reconstruction of the original Passion Narrative lacks a Burial and
                                              >Resurrection narrative altogether, also Peter Kirby's study of the earliest
                                              >tradition of Jesus's death. Then just as the Markan predictions of Jesus's
                                              >resurrection are textually secondary, so is the Markan account of Jesus's
                                              >resurrection. They are not biographical facts, they are later church
                                              >theories, put into Mark's narrative as facts, but not what Mark originally
                                              >reported as facts. Mark's gospel ended triumphantly, to be sure, but it was
                                              >not that kind of triumph.
                                              >
                                              >BOB: IIRC, that's about all that Jesus had to say, according to our sources,
                                              >about his own death and resurrection.
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: I agree, and I note that it comes to nothing. Jesus had no
                                              >presentiment of his death. It suited later believers to think that he had,
                                              >but that is a different question.
                                              >
                                              >BOB: So, I rather imagine that Paul had a good many discussions with many
                                              >people about the meaning of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: The big event here, I would think, is the impression of Peter and
                                              >after him a few others, that Jesus had appeared to them after his death,
                                              >giving them assurance that he was, if not still alive "after the flesh" at
                                              >least operative in the world. Mk 14:28 and 16:7 make Jesus predict that this
                                              >vision will occur, but again, these happen to be the two most obvious
                                              >interpolations in Mark, accepted by many as such, though not everyone cares
                                              >to explore the implications very far. The implications are that the
                                              >reappearance of Jesus was unexpected by those who had that vision, just as
                                              >Jesus's death was unexpected by himself.
                                              >
                                              >As for Paul, he himself confines his knowledge to a vision of his own, plus
                                              >a few days, later on, with Peter. We should not imagine Paul as at first
                                              >curious about Jesus; rather, according to his own account, he hated Jesus
                                              >and all that his early followers stood for, as an offense against Jewish
                                              >doctrine, and sought to kill them all he could. It was his experience of the
                                              >vision, however you visualize it (and Paul visualizes it rather differently
                                              >than Luke, a thing we have come to expect from Luke), that turned him
                                              >around. More or less literally.
                                              >
                                              >BOB: Furthermore, I suspect that the idea of the atonement took shape and
                                              >evolved during Paul's lifetime, as he tried to make sense of Jesus' life
                                              >and death (and resurrection.)
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: Not Paul, but the Jesus followers after Jesus's unexpected death. And
                                              >in several stages. First no resurrection, then the idea of a resurrection,
                                              >and probably quite a bit later, the reading of an Atonement idea into the
                                              >resurrection (the sacrificial interpretation of Jesus's death).
                                              >
                                              >BOB: And, of course, Paul was not alone in this effort.
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: He was not part of it; see above. And among the Jesus followers, some
                                              >stood apart from it, and were content to continue to follow Jesus as a
                                              >John-the-Baptist style guide to salvation.
                                              >
                                              >BOB: . . . But I doubt that Jesus had such conversations with Peter or his
                                              >brother James, unless it was at the "first Apostolic Conference" in
                                              >Jerusalem.
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: Agreed that no such conversations were held, by anybody, during
                                              >Jesus's lifetime. The problem with which any such conversations dealt did
                                              >not arise until after Jesus's death. Nor is it necessarily valid to imagine
                                              >a "democratic" model of Jesus theory, as arising from the reasoning together
                                              >of people on the same authority level. The resurrection was, for a short
                                              >time, an idea held only by Peter, later by a few other select persons, but
                                              >all of them persons having stature in the movement, not just some Eddie from
                                              >Chorazin. I think we are on statistically better ground in imagining these
                                              >doctrines as arising among persons of some authority in the movement. As far
                                              >as the Resurrection goes, the finger of anecdotal evidence seems to point to
                                              >Peter. Which makes it that much more logical that the early Paul would seek
                                              >him out for a first-hand account of that experience.
                                              >
                                              >BOB: In other words, although Paul may have had a role in shaping the
                                              >debate, I doubt that it sprung fully formed from his forehead.
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: Paul did not invent the Resurrection, a concept which arose among
                                              >Jesus's early followers already in the early Thirties. We have not so far
                                              >succeeded in finding anyone but Paul who held the Atonement interpretation
                                              >of Jesus's death, but we have pushed its emergence back behind his first
                                              >literary leavings, and thus into the Forties. This, as it happens, coincides
                                              >with the probable date at which at least one of the two places in Mark which
                                              >reflect that doctrine entered the text of Mark, namely, the middle Forties.
                                              >So either Paul thought of it, or someone else about that time thought of it.
                                              >
                                              >Who might have thought of it? Someone with a deep sense of the meaning of
                                              >sacrifice, that is, the idea that an evil in one place can translate into a
                                              >good in another place. No one familiar with soldierly tradition will find
                                              >this at all strange, but we seem not to be dealing here with soldiers; more
                                              >likely priests. The priests were especially thick in Jerusalem, and it may
                                              >be that the doctrine arose among the Jesus followers in Jerusalem; they
                                              >would also have been the ones to benefit most from it, in terms of authority
                                              >contests with others of light and leading in the movement, especially the
                                              >Galilean leaders. Also consider the tourist trade: On Mark's account, both
                                              >the preaching of Jesus and the reappearance of Jesus took place Galilee, but
                                              >as to the DEATH of Jesus, well, on that the Jerusalemers have an absolute
                                              >monopoly. The more the DEATH of Jesus can be developed as central to the
                                              >meaning of Jesus, the more the Jerusalemers stand to acquire standing as
                                              >those on the scene. That is speculative (though not unreasonable). What
                                              >about confirmation? Do we see hints in the record of conflicts of authority
                                              >between Jerusalem and Galilee? Wow, do we ever; both Luke and Matthew (and
                                              >who copied from whom it is not now necessary to adjudicate) make Jesus side
                                              >with the Jerusalemers, and curse the churches of Galilee, above all the
                                              >probably leading church of Capernaum. So yes, there was an authority war.
                                              >And Matthew and Luke, in some order, were on the Jerusalem side of it.
                                              >
                                              >If the idea arose in Jerusalem, then Paul of Tarsus, whose activities were
                                              >confined to the north, did not invent it. If he did not invent it, it must,
                                              >when it reached him, have been very agreeable to his sensibilities. Since
                                              >Paul was a strict Pharisee, the idea of sacrifice, though perhaps not at the
                                              >surface of his consciousness, will have been underneath there somewhere, a
                                              >unifying concept ready to be activated by a sufficient stimulus. I here wish
                                              >to suggest that contact with the Jerusalem Atonement idea may have been that
                                              >stimulus. Now, have we any grounds for thinking that Paul visited Jerusalem
                                              >sometime in the middle Forties? Yes, we do. Paul dates just such a visit,
                                              >and identifies it as dealing with questions of doctrine, in the fourteenth
                                              >year of his conversion. Now, these figures have caused endless worry among
                                              >the Paul researchers; they cannot quite be made to jibe with reason or with
                                              >other evidence. I suggest that they can be reconciled if we regard Paul as
                                              >having (a little inaccurately, but in order not to postdate by too much the
                                              >revelations to Peter and the Twelve) inwardly dated his vision of Jesus to
                                              >the year of Jesus's death, 30. If so, then his doctrinal visit to Jerusalem
                                              >will have been in the year 44. Again, we have a convergence of evidence for
                                              >the Atonement doctrine, both Pauline and Markan, in the middle Forties.
                                              >
                                              >BOB: But most of the analysis taking place here is based on literary
                                              >sources, so we will probably never know the details of how the doctrine of
                                              >the atonement developed and came into being. I think the differences between
                                              >Mark and Paul indicates that the early Christians were kicking the idea
                                              >around, but had not yet put the idea in writing.
                                              >
                                              >BRUCE: I think its first appearance in writing is the late interpolations in
                                              >Mark already referred to. Now we can notice that Mark (according to
                                              >persistent anecdotal tradition) was a Jerusalemer. Certainty in detail is
                                              >not available in these matters, but I think we have a general chronology
                                              >that pretty much works. Then the idea arose in Jerusalem, and existed there
                                              >by 44. Mark, who had not originally held it, came to be impressed byh it,
                                              >and stuck it in at a couple places in his previously written Gospel, one of
                                              >the places being necessarily written shortly after 44. Paul, who visited
                                              >Jerusalem in 44, may have picked it up at that time.
                                              >
                                              >As for names and faces, there is more to be done with the exact sequence of
                                              >things before and after the execution of Jim Zebedee, but perhaps not very
                                              >conveniently in this message.
                                              >
                                              >Bruce
                                              >
                                              >E Bruce Brooks
                                              >University of Massachusetts at Amherst
                                              >
                                              >Copyright C 2011 by E Bruce Brooks
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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