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Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?

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  • Stephen Carlson
    ... I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new verse came into being. Stephen -- Stephen C. Carlson Graduate Program in
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
      On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
      > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
      > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
      > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
      > route for the day had been completed.
      >

      I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
      verse came into being.

      Stephen
      --
      Stephen C. Carlson
      Graduate Program in Religion
      Duke University


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Emmanuel Fritsch
      ... For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be true in France. The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
        Stephen Carlson a écrit :
        >
        >
        > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
        > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
        >
        > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
        > a new
        > verse came into being.
        >
        For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
        true in France.
        The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

        Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

        http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

        a+
        manu
      • Chuck Jones
        Don t know if it s true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road. Chuck Rev. Chuck Jones Atlanta, Georgia ________________________________
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
          Don't know if it's true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road.

          Chuck

          Rev. Chuck Jones
          Atlanta, Georgia


          ________________________________
          From: Stephen Carlson <stemmatic@...>
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 4:37 PM
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


           
          On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
          > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
          > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
          > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
          > route for the day had been completed.
          >

          I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
          verse came into being.

          Stephen
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson
          Graduate Program in Religion
          Duke University

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stephen Carlson
          ... All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses do
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
            On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:13 PM, David Inglis <davidinglis2@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another
            > synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
            > while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so
            > inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
            > in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert
            > Estienne created our modern verse divisions
            > around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control
            > of) one person, then why are the synoptic
            > verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is
            > a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
            > Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something
            > else? If so, is there anything that the verse
            > divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?
            >
            All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while
            the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses
            do not.

            In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to urge all people interested
            in the synoptic problem to prepare a synopsis themselves (ideally in Greek
            but an old-fashioned formal equivalent can do). There is no substitute for
            getting down into the data, and getting a feel for what's going on at its
            most basic level. Unfortunately in the U.S., the synoptic problem is
            usually taught as a single lecture in an undergraduate or master's level
            class, generally by presenting the Mark-Q theory as the solution and
            refracting what little data that can be described in an hour through that
            lens.

            Stephen
            --
            Stephen C. Carlson
            Graduate Program in Religion
            Duke University


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Chuck Jones
            Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?). Chuck
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
              Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?).

              Chuck
              ______________________

              Robert Estienne:

              "In 1532, he published the remarkable Thesaurus linguae latinae, and twice he published the entire Hebrew Bible — "one with the Commentary of Kimchi on the minor prophets, in 13 vols. 4to (quarto) (Paris, 1539-43), another in 10 vols. 16mo (sextodecimo) (ibid. 1544-46)."[4] Both of these editions are rare.

              "Of more importance are his four editions of the Greek New Testament, 1546, 1549, 1550, and 1551, the last in Geneva. The first two are among the neatest Greek texts known, and are called O mirificam; the third is a splendid masterpiece of typographical skill, and is known as the Editio Regia; the edition of 1551 contains the Latin translation of Erasmus and the Vulgate, is not nearly as fine as the other three, and is exceedingly rare. It was in this edition that the division of the New Testament into verses was for the first time introduced."


              ________________________________
              From: Emmanuel Fritsch <emmanuel.fritsch@...>
              To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 6:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


               
              Stephen Carlson a écrit :
              >
              >
              > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
              > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
              >
              > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
              > a new
              > verse came into being.
              >
              For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
              true in France.
              The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

              Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

              http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

              a+
              manu



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Mealand
              The French passage cited here recently runs that Stephanus himself says in his letter to the reader (Concordance 1594) that he did the verse division on his
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                The French passage cited here recently
                runs that Stephanus himself says in his
                letter to the reader (Concordance 1594)
                that he did the verse division on his journey
                from Paris to Lyon - mostly on horseback...

                So Stephen Carlson seems to be right about
                the bumps...

                The account is not quite from the horse's mouth
                though, but seems to be the nearest thing...


                ---------
                David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                --
                The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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