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RE: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?

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  • David Inglis
    David I: I posed the following question: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass in one verse
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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      David I: I posed the following question:

      Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
      in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
      around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
      verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
      Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
      divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?



      Rev. Chuck Jones responded:

      If I had to guess about your second question, it is that he demarcated the gospel verses over time, and simply forgot what he'd done earlier.



      David I: Chuck, I find it hard to believe that this was the case, because if so then why would these divisions have become universally accepted? Unless there was some logic or pattern behind the divisions then I don’t see how this could become so dominant. One interesting consideration is that in Panarion 42 (c. 375), Epiphanius frequently mentions ‘verses’ in Lk (or rather, that’s the word used in English translations). For example:

      Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then, The stone which the builders rejected?”

      In other words, there was an early pattern of divisions more than 1,000 years before Estienne, so what was it based on, and did Estienne use the same ‘markers’ as Epiphanius when creating his verses?



      David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



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    • David Mealand
      Re the translation cited: Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then,
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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        Re the translation cited:
        Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which
        was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then, The
        stone which the builders rejected?”

        The Greek at the Epiphanius passage (nu epsilon = 55) does
        not have the words which appear in the translation as
        "material" and "verse".  It simply has the neuter plural of
        the definite article the first time  i.e. the things
        about, or the bits about, or the words about.  The second
        time it simply has the neuter singular of the definite
        article i.e. the bit, or the sentence, or the saying, or
        the question. The reader of the Greek has to supply
        a suitable noun.  So sadly the quest for verse division
        can't be established as early as this from this passage.

        Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
        was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
        on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
        Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
        route for the day had been completed.

        David M.

        ---------
        David Mealand,     University of Edinburgh


        --
        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
      • Stephen Carlson
        ... I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new verse came into being. Stephen -- Stephen C. Carlson Graduate Program in
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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          On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
          > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
          > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
          > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
          > route for the day had been completed.
          >

          I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
          verse came into being.

          Stephen
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson
          Graduate Program in Religion
          Duke University


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Emmanuel Fritsch
          ... For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be true in France. The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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            Stephen Carlson a écrit :
            >
            >
            > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
            > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
            >
            > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
            > a new
            > verse came into being.
            >
            For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
            true in France.
            The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

            Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

            http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

            a+
            manu
          • Chuck Jones
            Don t know if it s true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road. Chuck Rev. Chuck Jones Atlanta, Georgia ________________________________
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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              Don't know if it's true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road.

              Chuck

              Rev. Chuck Jones
              Atlanta, Georgia


              ________________________________
              From: Stephen Carlson <stemmatic@...>
              To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 4:37 PM
              Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


               
              On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
              > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
              > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
              > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
              > route for the day had been completed.
              >

              I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
              verse came into being.

              Stephen
              --
              Stephen C. Carlson
              Graduate Program in Religion
              Duke University

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stephen Carlson
              ... All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses do
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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                On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:13 PM, David Inglis <davidinglis2@...>wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another
                > synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
                > while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so
                > inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
                > in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert
                > Estienne created our modern verse divisions
                > around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control
                > of) one person, then why are the synoptic
                > verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is
                > a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
                > Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something
                > else? If so, is there anything that the verse
                > divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?
                >
                All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while
                the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses
                do not.

                In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to urge all people interested
                in the synoptic problem to prepare a synopsis themselves (ideally in Greek
                but an old-fashioned formal equivalent can do). There is no substitute for
                getting down into the data, and getting a feel for what's going on at its
                most basic level. Unfortunately in the U.S., the synoptic problem is
                usually taught as a single lecture in an undergraduate or master's level
                class, generally by presenting the Mark-Q theory as the solution and
                refracting what little data that can be described in an hour through that
                lens.

                Stephen
                --
                Stephen C. Carlson
                Graduate Program in Religion
                Duke University


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Chuck Jones
                Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?). Chuck
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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                  Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?).

                  Chuck
                  ______________________

                  Robert Estienne:

                  "In 1532, he published the remarkable Thesaurus linguae latinae, and twice he published the entire Hebrew Bible — "one with the Commentary of Kimchi on the minor prophets, in 13 vols. 4to (quarto) (Paris, 1539-43), another in 10 vols. 16mo (sextodecimo) (ibid. 1544-46)."[4] Both of these editions are rare.

                  "Of more importance are his four editions of the Greek New Testament, 1546, 1549, 1550, and 1551, the last in Geneva. The first two are among the neatest Greek texts known, and are called O mirificam; the third is a splendid masterpiece of typographical skill, and is known as the Editio Regia; the edition of 1551 contains the Latin translation of Erasmus and the Vulgate, is not nearly as fine as the other three, and is exceedingly rare. It was in this edition that the division of the New Testament into verses was for the first time introduced."


                  ________________________________
                  From: Emmanuel Fritsch <emmanuel.fritsch@...>
                  To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 6:11 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


                   
                  Stephen Carlson a écrit :
                  >
                  >
                  > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
                  > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
                  >
                  > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
                  > a new
                  > verse came into being.
                  >
                  For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
                  true in France.
                  The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

                  Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

                  http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

                  a+
                  manu



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Mealand
                  The French passage cited here recently runs that Stephanus himself says in his letter to the reader (Concordance 1594) that he did the verse division on his
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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                    The French passage cited here recently
                    runs that Stephanus himself says in his
                    letter to the reader (Concordance 1594)
                    that he did the verse division on his journey
                    from Paris to Lyon - mostly on horseback...

                    So Stephen Carlson seems to be right about
                    the bumps...

                    The account is not quite from the horse's mouth
                    though, but seems to be the nearest thing...


                    ---------
                    David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                    --
                    The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                    Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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