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Re: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?

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  • Dennis
    Canonical Luke seems dependent. I like Klinghardt s proposal, which posits Luke and Matt to be dependent upon Mark and an early version of Luke that Marcion
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
      Canonical Luke seems dependent. I like Klinghardt's proposal, which posits Luke and Matt to be dependent upon Mark and an early version of "Luke" that Marcion used.
      Dennis Carpenter
      Dahlonega, Ga.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Chuck Jones
      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 9:40 AM
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?



      There are indeed terminological issues here. An important word to add to the discussion is "dependence."

      Lk generally demonstrates more freedom in his wording with pericope that also occur in Mt and Mk. When this happens in the triple tradition, as is the case in "armies surrounding Jerusalem" vs. "the abomination....," we learn at least that Lk is not the "middle term" of the synoptics, i.e., Lk is dependent on Mk or Mt or both or sumpin'.

      Chuck

      Rev. Chuck Jones
      Atlanta, Georgia




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Inglis
      David I: I posed the following question: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass in one verse
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
        David I: I posed the following question:

        Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
        in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
        around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
        verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
        Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
        divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?



        Rev. Chuck Jones responded:

        If I had to guess about your second question, it is that he demarcated the gospel verses over time, and simply forgot what he'd done earlier.



        David I: Chuck, I find it hard to believe that this was the case, because if so then why would these divisions have become universally accepted? Unless there was some logic or pattern behind the divisions then I don’t see how this could become so dominant. One interesting consideration is that in Panarion 42 (c. 375), Epiphanius frequently mentions ‘verses’ in Lk (or rather, that’s the word used in English translations). For example:

        Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then, The stone which the builders rejected?”

        In other words, there was an early pattern of divisions more than 1,000 years before Estienne, so what was it based on, and did Estienne use the same ‘markers’ as Epiphanius when creating his verses?



        David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Mealand
        Re the translation cited: Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then,
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
          Re the translation cited:
          Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which
          was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then, The
          stone which the builders rejected?”

          The Greek at the Epiphanius passage (nu epsilon = 55) does
          not have the words which appear in the translation as
          "material" and "verse".  It simply has the neuter plural of
          the definite article the first time  i.e. the things
          about, or the bits about, or the words about.  The second
          time it simply has the neuter singular of the definite
          article i.e. the bit, or the sentence, or the saying, or
          the question. The reader of the Greek has to supply
          a suitable noun.  So sadly the quest for verse division
          can't be established as early as this from this passage.

          Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
          was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
          on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
          Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
          route for the day had been completed.

          David M.

          ---------
          David Mealand,     University of Edinburgh


          --
          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
        • Stephen Carlson
          ... I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new verse came into being. Stephen -- Stephen C. Carlson Graduate Program in
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
            On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
            > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
            > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
            > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
            > route for the day had been completed.
            >

            I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
            verse came into being.

            Stephen
            --
            Stephen C. Carlson
            Graduate Program in Religion
            Duke University


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Emmanuel Fritsch
            ... For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be true in France. The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
              Stephen Carlson a écrit :
              >
              >
              > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
              > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
              >
              > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
              > a new
              > verse came into being.
              >
              For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
              true in France.
              The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

              Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

              http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

              a+
              manu
            • Chuck Jones
              Don t know if it s true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road. Chuck Rev. Chuck Jones Atlanta, Georgia ________________________________
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                Don't know if it's true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road.

                Chuck

                Rev. Chuck Jones
                Atlanta, Georgia


                ________________________________
                From: Stephen Carlson <stemmatic@...>
                To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 4:37 PM
                Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


                 
                On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
                > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
                > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
                > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
                > route for the day had been completed.
                >

                I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
                verse came into being.

                Stephen
                --
                Stephen C. Carlson
                Graduate Program in Religion
                Duke University

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stephen Carlson
                ... All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses do
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                  On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:13 PM, David Inglis <davidinglis2@...>wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another
                  > synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
                  > while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so
                  > inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
                  > in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert
                  > Estienne created our modern verse divisions
                  > around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control
                  > of) one person, then why are the synoptic
                  > verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is
                  > a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
                  > Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something
                  > else? If so, is there anything that the verse
                  > divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?
                  >
                  All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while
                  the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses
                  do not.

                  In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to urge all people interested
                  in the synoptic problem to prepare a synopsis themselves (ideally in Greek
                  but an old-fashioned formal equivalent can do). There is no substitute for
                  getting down into the data, and getting a feel for what's going on at its
                  most basic level. Unfortunately in the U.S., the synoptic problem is
                  usually taught as a single lecture in an undergraduate or master's level
                  class, generally by presenting the Mark-Q theory as the solution and
                  refracting what little data that can be described in an hour through that
                  lens.

                  Stephen
                  --
                  Stephen C. Carlson
                  Graduate Program in Religion
                  Duke University


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Chuck Jones
                  Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?). Chuck
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                    Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?).

                    Chuck
                    ______________________

                    Robert Estienne:

                    "In 1532, he published the remarkable Thesaurus linguae latinae, and twice he published the entire Hebrew Bible — "one with the Commentary of Kimchi on the minor prophets, in 13 vols. 4to (quarto) (Paris, 1539-43), another in 10 vols. 16mo (sextodecimo) (ibid. 1544-46)."[4] Both of these editions are rare.

                    "Of more importance are his four editions of the Greek New Testament, 1546, 1549, 1550, and 1551, the last in Geneva. The first two are among the neatest Greek texts known, and are called O mirificam; the third is a splendid masterpiece of typographical skill, and is known as the Editio Regia; the edition of 1551 contains the Latin translation of Erasmus and the Vulgate, is not nearly as fine as the other three, and is exceedingly rare. It was in this edition that the division of the New Testament into verses was for the first time introduced."


                    ________________________________
                    From: Emmanuel Fritsch <emmanuel.fritsch@...>
                    To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 6:11 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


                     
                    Stephen Carlson a écrit :
                    >
                    >
                    > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
                    > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
                    >
                    > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
                    > a new
                    > verse came into being.
                    >
                    For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
                    true in France.
                    The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

                    Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

                    http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

                    a+
                    manu



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Mealand
                    The French passage cited here recently runs that Stephanus himself says in his letter to the reader (Concordance 1594) that he did the verse division on his
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                      The French passage cited here recently
                      runs that Stephanus himself says in his
                      letter to the reader (Concordance 1594)
                      that he did the verse division on his journey
                      from Paris to Lyon - mostly on horseback...

                      So Stephen Carlson seems to be right about
                      the bumps...

                      The account is not quite from the horse's mouth
                      though, but seems to be the nearest thing...


                      ---------
                      David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                      --
                      The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                      Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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