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Re: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel?

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  • David Mealand
    The issue of when passages are identical in form and sequence can be seen in Poirier s article pp.85, 105, 113, 117 P discusses Morgenthaler who raised the
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
      The issue of when passages are identical in form and sequence
      can be seen in Poirier's article pp.85, 105, 113, 117
      P discusses Morgenthaler who raised the issue, gives an example,
      discusses Bergemann's further view of the matter, then the approach
      of Ronning, then the work of the "Tokyo team".

      The issue with the HHB is slightly different in that each word has
      to be assigned. So for example data labelled 021 will
      consist of words which are used by Mark, where the equivalent
      passage is not there in Matthew, and where Luke uses a different
      word from the one Mark used. (I am trying to keep wording as
      theory neutral as possible - so avoiding "omits" "changes" etc.)

      The problem is how much of Mark's wording/sentence/passage
      has to be absent in Matthew to get an 021. How much of Mark's
      wording/sentence/passage has to be present to get a 121 or a 221?

      This may seem an abstruse technical issue but it can have serious
      implications when one tries to decide on the HHB evidence whether
      the stuff in Mark correlates better than the stuff in Matthew. The
      evidence is that it does. That should be the case if Matthew used Mark.
      The opposite should be the case if Mark used Matthew. David Inglis
      argues that the data in the relevant columns based on HHB shows
      Mark to be more consistent, and Matthew to be more diverse.
      I think his analysis of this is correct.

      It would be interesting to know if anyone has experience of agreeing
      with, or dissenting from, the judgements on the assignments of words
      to categories in the HHB Synoptic Concordance, especially in relation
      to their assessment of "parallel" passages.

      David M.




      ---------
      David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


      --
      The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
      Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
    • Chuck Jones
      There are indeed terminological issues here.  An important word to add to the discussion is dependence. Lk generally demonstrates more freedom in his
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
        There are indeed terminological issues here.  An important word to add to the discussion is "dependence."

        Lk generally demonstrates more freedom in his wording with pericope that also occur in Mt and Mk.  When this happens in the triple tradition, as is the case in "armies surrounding Jerusalem" vs. "the abomination....," we learn at least that Lk is not the "middle term" of the synoptics, i.e., Lk is dependent on Mk or Mt or both or sumpin'.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia



        ________________________________
        From: Bob Schacht <r_schacht@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:17 AM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?


         
        At 10:13 AM 10/5/2011, David Inglis wrote:
        >I originally asked the first of these questions on another forum,
        >but as it has relevance to my synoptic stylometric
        >analysis
        >here <https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem>
        >https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem
        >, I would like to bring it up on synoptic.

        I don't think there is any standard answer to your question. The
        problem, ISTM, is that the word "parallel" has no precise definition
        in textual criticism, so there is no definitive answer to your question.
        This is essentially a question of the practice of Textual Criticism.
        An easy to read introduction to the subject may be found at
        http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/intro.html#Practice

        The idea of "parallels" has been heavily influenced by parallel
        Bibles and harmonies, that list Biblical "parallels" in columns to
        facilitate comparison. In fact, of course, parallels are the very
        stuff out of which synoptic studies are made. As you can imagine, the
        texts arranged in parallel columns range from placing passages that
        are literally identical side by side with passages that have only a
        few key words in common. In other words, the idea of literary
        "parallels" has been the object of so much abuse that it is difficult
        to say what they are.

        The problem is easily illustrated by the "minor agreements," which
        are a special type of "parallel":
        >Specifically, there are 347 instances (by Neirynck's count) where
        >one or more words are added to the Markan text in both Matthew and
        >Luke; these are called the "minor agreements" against Mark. Some 198
        >instances involve one word, 82 involve two words, 35 three, 16 four,
        >and 16 instances involve five or more words in the extant texts of
        >Matthew and Luke as compared to Markan passages.
        (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source)

        So, how many different words are required before it is no longer a
        parallel? Or should we be using percentages instead of raw counts? Or
        to come from the opposite direction, how many words (or what
        percentage of words) do two passages have to have in common before
        they are considered "parallel"? And surely we have to address the
        order of the words as well.
        Pretty soon, the whole idea of trying to precisely define what a
        parallel is, and what it is not, becomes hopeless.

        Again, I refer you to the article above on the Practice of Textual Criticism.

        Bob Schacht
        Northern Arizona University

        >
        >
        >
        >Mk 13:14a But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,
        >[spoken of by Daniel the prophet,] standing where it
        >ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)
        >
        >Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
        >spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
        >place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
        >
        >Lk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then
        >know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
        >
        >
        >Mk 13:14b then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
        >
        >Mk 3:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the
        >house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of
        >his house:
        >
        >Mk 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to
        >take up his garment.
        >
        >Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
        >
        >Mt 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any
        >thing out of his house:
        >
        >Mt 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take
        >his clothes.
        >
        >Lk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;
        >and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;
        >and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
        >
        >
        >
        >In the above example it is clear that Mk 13:14a and Mt 24:15 are
        >very close parallels. It is also clear that Mk 13:14b,
        >Mt 24:16, and Lk 21:21a are close parallels. However, can Lk 21:20
        >in any way be called a parallel of Mk 13:14a/Mt
        >24:15? It doesn't seem reasonable to me to call it a parallel;
        >instead I see it as a rejection and replacement of Mk
        >13:14a/Mt 24:15. So, as well as asking how other people view Lk
        >21:20 in particular, I would like to ask just how this
        >situation is viewed generally, i.e. how far apart can two pieces of
        >text in the synoptics be and still be regarded as
        >parallels? Is there even any common 'standard,' because if not,
        >doesn't this at least blur the edges of the synoptic
        >sonderguts, double/triple traditions, etc?
        >
        >
        >
        >On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another
        >synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
        >while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so
        >inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
        >in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that
        >Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
        >around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the
        >control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
        >verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether
        >this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
        >Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps
        >something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
        >divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?
        >
        >
        >
        >David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dennis
        Canonical Luke seems dependent. I like Klinghardt s proposal, which posits Luke and Matt to be dependent upon Mark and an early version of Luke that Marcion
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
          Canonical Luke seems dependent. I like Klinghardt's proposal, which posits Luke and Matt to be dependent upon Mark and an early version of "Luke" that Marcion used.
          Dennis Carpenter
          Dahlonega, Ga.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Chuck Jones
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 9:40 AM
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?



          There are indeed terminological issues here. An important word to add to the discussion is "dependence."

          Lk generally demonstrates more freedom in his wording with pericope that also occur in Mt and Mk. When this happens in the triple tradition, as is the case in "armies surrounding Jerusalem" vs. "the abomination....," we learn at least that Lk is not the "middle term" of the synoptics, i.e., Lk is dependent on Mk or Mt or both or sumpin'.

          Chuck

          Rev. Chuck Jones
          Atlanta, Georgia




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Inglis
          David I: I posed the following question: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass in one verse
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
            David I: I posed the following question:

            Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
            in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
            around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
            verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
            Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
            divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?



            Rev. Chuck Jones responded:

            If I had to guess about your second question, it is that he demarcated the gospel verses over time, and simply forgot what he'd done earlier.



            David I: Chuck, I find it hard to believe that this was the case, because if so then why would these divisions have become universally accepted? Unless there was some logic or pattern behind the divisions then I don’t see how this could become so dominant. One interesting consideration is that in Panarion 42 (c. 375), Epiphanius frequently mentions ‘verses’ in Lk (or rather, that’s the word used in English translations). For example:

            Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then, The stone which the builders rejected?”

            In other words, there was an early pattern of divisions more than 1,000 years before Estienne, so what was it based on, and did Estienne use the same ‘markers’ as Epiphanius when creating his verses?



            David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Mealand
            Re the translation cited: Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then,
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
              Re the translation cited:
              Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which
              was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then, The
              stone which the builders rejected?”

              The Greek at the Epiphanius passage (nu epsilon = 55) does
              not have the words which appear in the translation as
              "material" and "verse".  It simply has the neuter plural of
              the definite article the first time  i.e. the things
              about, or the bits about, or the words about.  The second
              time it simply has the neuter singular of the definite
              article i.e. the bit, or the sentence, or the saying, or
              the question. The reader of the Greek has to supply
              a suitable noun.  So sadly the quest for verse division
              can't be established as early as this from this passage.

              Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
              was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
              on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
              Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
              route for the day had been completed.

              David M.

              ---------
              David Mealand,     University of Edinburgh


              --
              The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
              Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
            • Stephen Carlson
              ... I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new verse came into being. Stephen -- Stephen C. Carlson Graduate Program in
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
                On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
                > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
                > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
                > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
                > route for the day had been completed.
                >

                I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
                verse came into being.

                Stephen
                --
                Stephen C. Carlson
                Graduate Program in Religion
                Duke University


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Emmanuel Fritsch
                ... For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be true in France. The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                  Stephen Carlson a écrit :
                  >
                  >
                  > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
                  > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
                  >
                  > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
                  > a new
                  > verse came into being.
                  >
                  For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
                  true in France.
                  The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

                  Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

                  http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

                  a+
                  manu
                • Chuck Jones
                  Don t know if it s true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road. Chuck Rev. Chuck Jones Atlanta, Georgia ________________________________
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                    Don't know if it's true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road.

                    Chuck

                    Rev. Chuck Jones
                    Atlanta, Georgia


                    ________________________________
                    From: Stephen Carlson <stemmatic@...>
                    To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 4:37 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


                     
                    On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
                    > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
                    > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
                    > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
                    > route for the day had been completed.
                    >

                    I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
                    verse came into being.

                    Stephen
                    --
                    Stephen C. Carlson
                    Graduate Program in Religion
                    Duke University

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stephen Carlson
                    ... All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses do
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                      On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:13 PM, David Inglis <davidinglis2@...>wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another
                      > synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
                      > while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so
                      > inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
                      > in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert
                      > Estienne created our modern verse divisions
                      > around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control
                      > of) one person, then why are the synoptic
                      > verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is
                      > a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
                      > Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something
                      > else? If so, is there anything that the verse
                      > divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?
                      >
                      All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while
                      the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses
                      do not.

                      In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to urge all people interested
                      in the synoptic problem to prepare a synopsis themselves (ideally in Greek
                      but an old-fashioned formal equivalent can do). There is no substitute for
                      getting down into the data, and getting a feel for what's going on at its
                      most basic level. Unfortunately in the U.S., the synoptic problem is
                      usually taught as a single lecture in an undergraduate or master's level
                      class, generally by presenting the Mark-Q theory as the solution and
                      refracting what little data that can be described in an hour through that
                      lens.

                      Stephen
                      --
                      Stephen C. Carlson
                      Graduate Program in Religion
                      Duke University


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Chuck Jones
                      Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?). Chuck
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                        Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?).

                        Chuck
                        ______________________

                        Robert Estienne:

                        "In 1532, he published the remarkable Thesaurus linguae latinae, and twice he published the entire Hebrew Bible — "one with the Commentary of Kimchi on the minor prophets, in 13 vols. 4to (quarto) (Paris, 1539-43), another in 10 vols. 16mo (sextodecimo) (ibid. 1544-46)."[4] Both of these editions are rare.

                        "Of more importance are his four editions of the Greek New Testament, 1546, 1549, 1550, and 1551, the last in Geneva. The first two are among the neatest Greek texts known, and are called O mirificam; the third is a splendid masterpiece of typographical skill, and is known as the Editio Regia; the edition of 1551 contains the Latin translation of Erasmus and the Vulgate, is not nearly as fine as the other three, and is exceedingly rare. It was in this edition that the division of the New Testament into verses was for the first time introduced."


                        ________________________________
                        From: Emmanuel Fritsch <emmanuel.fritsch@...>
                        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 6:11 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


                         
                        Stephen Carlson a écrit :
                        >
                        >
                        > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
                        > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
                        >
                        > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
                        > a new
                        > verse came into being.
                        >
                        For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
                        true in France.
                        The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

                        Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

                        http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

                        a+
                        manu



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David Mealand
                        The French passage cited here recently runs that Stephanus himself says in his letter to the reader (Concordance 1594) that he did the verse division on his
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
                          The French passage cited here recently
                          runs that Stephanus himself says in his
                          letter to the reader (Concordance 1594)
                          that he did the verse division on his journey
                          from Paris to Lyon - mostly on horseback...

                          So Stephen Carlson seems to be right about
                          the bumps...

                          The account is not quite from the horse's mouth
                          though, but seems to be the nearest thing...


                          ---------
                          David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                          --
                          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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