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When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?

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  • David Inglis
    I originally asked the first of these questions on another forum, but as it has relevance to my synoptic stylometric analysis here
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 5, 2011
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      I originally asked the first of these questions on another forum, but as it has relevance to my synoptic stylometric
      analysis here <https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem>
      https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem , I would like to bring it up on synoptic.




      Mk 13:14a But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, [spoken of by Daniel the prophet,] standing where it
      ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)

      Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
      place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

      Lk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


      Mk 13:14b then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

      Mk 3:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of
      his house:

      Mk 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

      Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

      Mt 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

      Mt 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

      Lk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;
      and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.



      In the above example it is clear that Mk 13:14a and Mt 24:15 are very close parallels. It is also clear that Mk 13:14b,
      Mt 24:16, and Lk 21:21a are close parallels. However, can Lk 21:20 in any way be called a parallel of Mk 13:14a/Mt
      24:15? It doesn't seem reasonable to me to call it a parallel; instead I see it as a rejection and replacement of Mk
      13:14a/Mt 24:15. So, as well as asking how other people view Lk 21:20 in particular, I would like to ask just how this
      situation is viewed generally, i.e. how far apart can two pieces of text in the synoptics be and still be regarded as
      parallels? Is there even any common 'standard,' because if not, doesn't this at least blur the edges of the synoptic
      sonderguts, double/triple traditions, etc?



      On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
      while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
      in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
      around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
      verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
      Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
      divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?



      David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Chuck Jones
      David, If I had to guess about your second question, it is that he demarcated the gospel verses over time, and simply forgot what he d done earlier. Chuck Rev.
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 5, 2011
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        David,

        If I had to guess about your second question, it is that he demarcated the gospel verses over time, and simply forgot what he'd done earlier.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia


        ________________________________
        From: David Inglis <davidinglis2@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 1:13 PM
        Subject: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?


         
        I originally asked the first of these questions on another forum, but as it has relevance to my synoptic stylometric
        analysis here <https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem>
        https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem , I would like to bring it up on synoptic.

        Mk 13:14a But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, [spoken of by Daniel the prophet,] standing where it
        ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)

        Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
        place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

        Lk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

        Mk 13:14b then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

        Mk 3:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of
        his house:

        Mk 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

        Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

        Mt 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

        Mt 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

        Lk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;
        and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

        In the above example it is clear that Mk 13:14a and Mt 24:15 are very close parallels. It is also clear that Mk 13:14b,
        Mt 24:16, and Lk 21:21a are close parallels. However, can Lk 21:20 in any way be called a parallel of Mk 13:14a/Mt
        24:15? It doesn't seem reasonable to me to call it a parallel; instead I see it as a rejection and replacement of Mk
        13:14a/Mt 24:15. So, as well as asking how other people view Lk 21:20 in particular, I would like to ask just how this
        situation is viewed generally, i.e. how far apart can two pieces of text in the synoptics be and still be regarded as
        parallels? Is there even any common 'standard,' because if not, doesn't this at least blur the edges of the synoptic
        sonderguts, double/triple traditions, etc?

        On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
        while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
        in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
        around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
        verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
        Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
        divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?

        David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • E Bruce Brooks
        To: Synoptic Cc: GPG In Response To: David I On: What is a parallel? From: Bruce There is a terminological confusion here, which David is pointing to, and
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 5, 2011
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          To: Synoptic
          Cc: GPG
          In Response To: David I
          On: What is a parallel?
          From: Bruce

          There is a terminological confusion here, which David is pointing to, and
          which I think it would be helpful to discourse to clean up. Herewith my
          suggestion.

          DAVID: In the above example it is clear that Mk 13:14a and Mt 24:15 are very
          close parallels. It is also clear that Mk 13:14b, Mt 24:16, and Lk 21:21a
          are close parallels. However, can Lk 21:20 in any way be called a parallel
          of Mk 13:14a/Mt 24:15? It doesn't seem reasonable to me to call it a
          parallel; instead I see it as a rejection and replacement of Mk 13:14a/Mt
          24:15.

          BRUCE: It seems to me that there are two questions here, and that neither
          automatically gives the answer to the other. Of a given Luke passage, we can
          usefully ask, "Is there anything corresponding to this in Mt or Mk?" When
          there are passages which match in position and closely agree in wording,
          there is no difficulty in identifying them as corresponding.

          Does the Nazareth episode in Mark correspond to the Nazareth episode in
          Luke? The two are not at comparable parts of the respective sequences (in
          Luke, that episode occurs very early). And as to similarity, they start
          similarly, but in their endings, they are violently different. So here we
          might want to use our judgement, and part of judgement is knowing more
          stuff. Once we see that Luke more than once relocates a story that is
          otherwise recognizable as Markan, the problem of the difference of position
          vanishes, at least as it tends to impugn identification as corresponding
          passages. And once we see that the way Luke ends the Nazareth episode is
          exactly analogous to the way he ends his whole Luke-Acts panorama
          (Jewish/Christian mutual rejection), then that difference too becomes
          understandable.

          Nobody would worry about the word "parallel" if the two stories were
          positionally the same and substantively similar. It is when the positional
          parallel becomes a skew parallel, and the content similarity becomes a
          disjunct and sometimes contrary similarity, that we have problems.

          My own answer is not to ask, Is the Mark Nazareth parallel to the Luke
          Nazareth? but rather, Are we better off understanding the Luke Nazareth
          story if we also have on the table the Mark Nazareth story? To this, I think
          the answer must be Yes. It is much easier to see what Luke is doing, if we
          know what he is doing it to.

          And if the familar word "parallel" is the way we are going to remind
          ourselves to bring the two together, then I am prepared to live with any
          resulting incidental skewness.

          Bruce

          E Bruce Brooks
          University of Massachusetts at Amherst
        • David Mealand
          The question David Inglis is asking about parallels might seem of tangential interest but has quite serious implications for Synoptic studies. For example
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 5, 2011
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            The question David Inglis is asking about parallels
            might seem of tangential interest but has quite serious
            implications for Synoptic studies.

            For example several earlier statistical approaches to
            the Synoptic question have agonized over how exact in
            form and sequence a set of words needs in order to be
            Form und Folge identisch. (See Poirier on this).

            The HHB concordance has the Synoptics in 19 categories
            and some of these go

            222 = same word in Mat Mk & Lk;
            122 = Mat has a different word but has a parallel;
            022 = Mat doesn't have either the word or a parallel.

            Given that the other writers can do the same we get
            9 categories for Matthew. The data from HHB allow
            some serious analysis which David Inglis has done,
            for example producing fresh evidence for Markan priority
            by showing which of the 19 columns of data are, and are
            not, closely correlated.

            David M.




            ---------
            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


            --
            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
          • Bob Schacht
            ... I don t think there is any standard answer to your question. The problem, ISTM, is that the word parallel has no precise definition in textual criticism,
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 5, 2011
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              At 10:13 AM 10/5/2011, David Inglis wrote:
              >I originally asked the first of these questions on another forum,
              >but as it has relevance to my synoptic stylometric
              >analysis
              >here <https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem>
              >https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem
              >, I would like to bring it up on synoptic.

              I don't think there is any standard answer to your question. The
              problem, ISTM, is that the word "parallel" has no precise definition
              in textual criticism, so there is no definitive answer to your question.
              This is essentially a question of the practice of Textual Criticism.
              An easy to read introduction to the subject may be found at
              http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/intro.html#Practice

              The idea of "parallels" has been heavily influenced by parallel
              Bibles and harmonies, that list Biblical "parallels" in columns to
              facilitate comparison. In fact, of course, parallels are the very
              stuff out of which synoptic studies are made. As you can imagine, the
              texts arranged in parallel columns range from placing passages that
              are literally identical side by side with passages that have only a
              few key words in common. In other words, the idea of literary
              "parallels" has been the object of so much abuse that it is difficult
              to say what they are.

              The problem is easily illustrated by the "minor agreements," which
              are a special type of "parallel":
              >Specifically, there are 347 instances (by Neirynck's count) where
              >one or more words are added to the Markan text in both Matthew and
              >Luke; these are called the "minor agreements" against Mark. Some 198
              >instances involve one word, 82 involve two words, 35 three, 16 four,
              >and 16 instances involve five or more words in the extant texts of
              >Matthew and Luke as compared to Markan passages.
              (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source)

              So, how many different words are required before it is no longer a
              parallel? Or should we be using percentages instead of raw counts? Or
              to come from the opposite direction, how many words (or what
              percentage of words) do two passages have to have in common before
              they are considered "parallel"? And surely we have to address the
              order of the words as well.
              Pretty soon, the whole idea of trying to precisely define what a
              parallel is, and what it is not, becomes hopeless.

              Again, I refer you to the article above on the Practice of Textual Criticism.

              Bob Schacht
              Northern Arizona University


              >
              >
              >
              >Mk 13:14a But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,
              >[spoken of by Daniel the prophet,] standing where it
              >ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)
              >
              >Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
              >spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
              >place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
              >
              >Lk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then
              >know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
              >
              >
              >Mk 13:14b then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
              >
              >Mk 3:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the
              >house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of
              >his house:
              >
              >Mk 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to
              >take up his garment.
              >
              >Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
              >
              >Mt 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any
              >thing out of his house:
              >
              >Mt 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take
              >his clothes.
              >
              >Lk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;
              >and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;
              >and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
              >
              >
              >
              >In the above example it is clear that Mk 13:14a and Mt 24:15 are
              >very close parallels. It is also clear that Mk 13:14b,
              >Mt 24:16, and Lk 21:21a are close parallels. However, can Lk 21:20
              >in any way be called a parallel of Mk 13:14a/Mt
              >24:15? It doesn't seem reasonable to me to call it a parallel;
              >instead I see it as a rejection and replacement of Mk
              >13:14a/Mt 24:15. So, as well as asking how other people view Lk
              >21:20 in particular, I would like to ask just how this
              >situation is viewed generally, i.e. how far apart can two pieces of
              >text in the synoptics be and still be regarded as
              >parallels? Is there even any common 'standard,' because if not,
              >doesn't this at least blur the edges of the synoptic
              >sonderguts, double/triple traditions, etc?
              >
              >
              >
              >On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another
              >synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
              >while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so
              >inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
              >in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that
              >Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
              >around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the
              >control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
              >verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether
              >this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
              >Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps
              >something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
              >divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?
              >
              >
              >
              >David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Mealand
              The issue of when passages are identical in form and sequence can be seen in Poirier s article pp.85, 105, 113, 117 P discusses Morgenthaler who raised the
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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                The issue of when passages are identical in form and sequence
                can be seen in Poirier's article pp.85, 105, 113, 117
                P discusses Morgenthaler who raised the issue, gives an example,
                discusses Bergemann's further view of the matter, then the approach
                of Ronning, then the work of the "Tokyo team".

                The issue with the HHB is slightly different in that each word has
                to be assigned. So for example data labelled 021 will
                consist of words which are used by Mark, where the equivalent
                passage is not there in Matthew, and where Luke uses a different
                word from the one Mark used. (I am trying to keep wording as
                theory neutral as possible - so avoiding "omits" "changes" etc.)

                The problem is how much of Mark's wording/sentence/passage
                has to be absent in Matthew to get an 021. How much of Mark's
                wording/sentence/passage has to be present to get a 121 or a 221?

                This may seem an abstruse technical issue but it can have serious
                implications when one tries to decide on the HHB evidence whether
                the stuff in Mark correlates better than the stuff in Matthew. The
                evidence is that it does. That should be the case if Matthew used Mark.
                The opposite should be the case if Mark used Matthew. David Inglis
                argues that the data in the relevant columns based on HHB shows
                Mark to be more consistent, and Matthew to be more diverse.
                I think his analysis of this is correct.

                It would be interesting to know if anyone has experience of agreeing
                with, or dissenting from, the judgements on the assignments of words
                to categories in the HHB Synoptic Concordance, especially in relation
                to their assessment of "parallel" passages.

                David M.




                ---------
                David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                --
                The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
              • Chuck Jones
                There are indeed terminological issues here.  An important word to add to the discussion is dependence. Lk generally demonstrates more freedom in his
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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                  There are indeed terminological issues here.  An important word to add to the discussion is "dependence."

                  Lk generally demonstrates more freedom in his wording with pericope that also occur in Mt and Mk.  When this happens in the triple tradition, as is the case in "armies surrounding Jerusalem" vs. "the abomination....," we learn at least that Lk is not the "middle term" of the synoptics, i.e., Lk is dependent on Mk or Mt or both or sumpin'.

                  Chuck

                  Rev. Chuck Jones
                  Atlanta, Georgia



                  ________________________________
                  From: Bob Schacht <r_schacht@...>
                  To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 1:17 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?


                   
                  At 10:13 AM 10/5/2011, David Inglis wrote:
                  >I originally asked the first of these questions on another forum,
                  >but as it has relevance to my synoptic stylometric
                  >analysis
                  >here <https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem>
                  >https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonmarcion/Home/the-synoptic-problem
                  >, I would like to bring it up on synoptic.

                  I don't think there is any standard answer to your question. The
                  problem, ISTM, is that the word "parallel" has no precise definition
                  in textual criticism, so there is no definitive answer to your question.
                  This is essentially a question of the practice of Textual Criticism.
                  An easy to read introduction to the subject may be found at
                  http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/intro.html#Practice

                  The idea of "parallels" has been heavily influenced by parallel
                  Bibles and harmonies, that list Biblical "parallels" in columns to
                  facilitate comparison. In fact, of course, parallels are the very
                  stuff out of which synoptic studies are made. As you can imagine, the
                  texts arranged in parallel columns range from placing passages that
                  are literally identical side by side with passages that have only a
                  few key words in common. In other words, the idea of literary
                  "parallels" has been the object of so much abuse that it is difficult
                  to say what they are.

                  The problem is easily illustrated by the "minor agreements," which
                  are a special type of "parallel":
                  >Specifically, there are 347 instances (by Neirynck's count) where
                  >one or more words are added to the Markan text in both Matthew and
                  >Luke; these are called the "minor agreements" against Mark. Some 198
                  >instances involve one word, 82 involve two words, 35 three, 16 four,
                  >and 16 instances involve five or more words in the extant texts of
                  >Matthew and Luke as compared to Markan passages.
                  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source)

                  So, how many different words are required before it is no longer a
                  parallel? Or should we be using percentages instead of raw counts? Or
                  to come from the opposite direction, how many words (or what
                  percentage of words) do two passages have to have in common before
                  they are considered "parallel"? And surely we have to address the
                  order of the words as well.
                  Pretty soon, the whole idea of trying to precisely define what a
                  parallel is, and what it is not, becomes hopeless.

                  Again, I refer you to the article above on the Practice of Textual Criticism.

                  Bob Schacht
                  Northern Arizona University

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Mk 13:14a But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,
                  >[spoken of by Daniel the prophet,] standing where it
                  >ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)
                  >
                  >Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
                  >spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
                  >place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
                  >
                  >Lk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then
                  >know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
                  >
                  >
                  >Mk 13:14b then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
                  >
                  >Mk 3:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the
                  >house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of
                  >his house:
                  >
                  >Mk 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to
                  >take up his garment.
                  >
                  >Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
                  >
                  >Mt 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any
                  >thing out of his house:
                  >
                  >Mt 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take
                  >his clothes.
                  >
                  >Lk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;
                  >and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;
                  >and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >In the above example it is clear that Mk 13:14a and Mt 24:15 are
                  >very close parallels. It is also clear that Mk 13:14b,
                  >Mt 24:16, and Lk 21:21a are close parallels. However, can Lk 21:20
                  >in any way be called a parallel of Mk 13:14a/Mt
                  >24:15? It doesn't seem reasonable to me to call it a parallel;
                  >instead I see it as a rejection and replacement of Mk
                  >13:14a/Mt 24:15. So, as well as asking how other people view Lk
                  >21:20 in particular, I would like to ask just how this
                  >situation is viewed generally, i.e. how far apart can two pieces of
                  >text in the synoptics be and still be regarded as
                  >parallels? Is there even any common 'standard,' because if not,
                  >doesn't this at least blur the edges of the synoptic
                  >sonderguts, double/triple traditions, etc?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another
                  >synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
                  >while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so
                  >inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
                  >in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that
                  >Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
                  >around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the
                  >control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
                  >verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether
                  >this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
                  >Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps
                  >something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
                  >divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >------------------------------------
                  >
                  >Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dennis
                  Canonical Luke seems dependent. I like Klinghardt s proposal, which posits Luke and Matt to be dependent upon Mark and an early version of Luke that Marcion
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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                    Canonical Luke seems dependent. I like Klinghardt's proposal, which posits Luke and Matt to be dependent upon Mark and an early version of "Luke" that Marcion used.
                    Dennis Carpenter
                    Dahlonega, Ga.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Chuck Jones
                    To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 9:40 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] When is a parallel not a parallel? Also, when is a verse not a verse?



                    There are indeed terminological issues here. An important word to add to the discussion is "dependence."

                    Lk generally demonstrates more freedom in his wording with pericope that also occur in Mt and Mk. When this happens in the triple tradition, as is the case in "armies surrounding Jerusalem" vs. "the abomination....," we learn at least that Lk is not the "middle term" of the synoptics, i.e., Lk is dependent on Mk or Mt or both or sumpin'.

                    Chuck

                    Rev. Chuck Jones
                    Atlanta, Georgia




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Inglis
                    David I: I posed the following question: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass in one verse
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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                      David I: I posed the following question:

                      Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
                      in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert Estienne created our modern verse divisions
                      around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control of) one person, then why are the synoptic
                      verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
                      Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something else? If so, is there anything that the verse
                      divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?



                      Rev. Chuck Jones responded:

                      If I had to guess about your second question, it is that he demarcated the gospel verses over time, and simply forgot what he'd done earlier.



                      David I: Chuck, I find it hard to believe that this was the case, because if so then why would these divisions have become universally accepted? Unless there was some logic or pattern behind the divisions then I don’t see how this could become so dominant. One interesting consideration is that in Panarion 42 (c. 375), Epiphanius frequently mentions ‘verses’ in Lk (or rather, that’s the word used in English translations). For example:

                      Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then, The stone which the builders rejected?”

                      In other words, there was an early pattern of divisions more than 1,000 years before Estienne, so what was it based on, and did Estienne use the same ‘markers’ as Epiphanius when creating his verses?



                      David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Mealand
                      Re the translation cited: Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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                        Re the translation cited:
                        Scholion 55: Again, he excised the material about the vineyard which
                        was let out to husbandmen, and the verse, ”What is this then, The
                        stone which the builders rejected?”

                        The Greek at the Epiphanius passage (nu epsilon = 55) does
                        not have the words which appear in the translation as
                        "material" and "verse".  It simply has the neuter plural of
                        the definite article the first time  i.e. the things
                        about, or the bits about, or the words about.  The second
                        time it simply has the neuter singular of the definite
                        article i.e. the bit, or the sentence, or the saying, or
                        the question. The reader of the Greek has to supply
                        a suitable noun.  So sadly the quest for verse division
                        can't be established as early as this from this passage.

                        Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
                        was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
                        on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
                        Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
                        route for the day had been completed.

                        David M.

                        ---------
                        David Mealand,     University of Edinburgh


                        --
                        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                      • Stephen Carlson
                        ... I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new verse came into being. Stephen -- Stephen C. Carlson Graduate Program in
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 6, 2011
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                          On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
                          > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
                          > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
                          > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
                          > route for the day had been completed.
                          >

                          I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
                          verse came into being.

                          Stephen
                          --
                          Stephen C. Carlson
                          Graduate Program in Religion
                          Duke University


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Emmanuel Fritsch
                          ... For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be true in France. The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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                            Stephen Carlson a écrit :
                            >
                            >
                            > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
                            > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
                            >
                            > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
                            > a new
                            > verse came into being.
                            >
                            For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
                            true in France.
                            The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

                            Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

                            http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

                            a+
                            manu
                          • Chuck Jones
                            Don t know if it s true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road. Chuck Rev. Chuck Jones Atlanta, Georgia ________________________________
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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                              Don't know if it's true, but I heard the same story, including the bumps in the road.

                              Chuck

                              Rev. Chuck Jones
                              Atlanta, Georgia


                              ________________________________
                              From: Stephen Carlson <stemmatic@...>
                              To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 4:37 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


                               
                              On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              > Incidentally is the story true that the 16th C verse division
                              > was done as the scholar in question "travelled across Europe
                              > on horseback" as I heard a lecturer declare many years ago?
                              > Presumably he meant the work was done in the inns after the
                              > route for the day had been completed.
                              >

                              I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road, a new
                              verse came into being.

                              Stephen
                              --
                              Stephen C. Carlson
                              Graduate Program in Religion
                              Duke University

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stephen Carlson
                              ... All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses do
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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                                On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:13 PM, David Inglis <davidinglis2@...>wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                > On a related issue, the above passages provide an example of another
                                > synoptic phenomenon that has puzzled me for a
                                > while, which is: Why are the verse divisions in the synoptics so
                                > inconsistent? For example, why does Mk 13:14 encompass
                                > in one verse what is two verses in Mt? My understanding is that Robert
                                > Estienne created our modern verse divisions
                                > around 1551, but if they were the work or (or at least under the control
                                > of) one person, then why are the synoptic
                                > verses not always divided up the same way? Does anyone know whether this is
                                > a 'hangover' from some characteristic of the
                                > Greek mss Estienne was used to seeing at the time, or perhaps something
                                > else? If so, is there anything that the verse
                                > divisions can tell us with regard to the synoptic problem itself?
                                >
                                All joking aside, my experience from preparing my own synopsis is that while
                                the chapter seem to line up fairly well with synoptic parallels, the verses
                                do not.

                                In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to urge all people interested
                                in the synoptic problem to prepare a synopsis themselves (ideally in Greek
                                but an old-fashioned formal equivalent can do). There is no substitute for
                                getting down into the data, and getting a feel for what's going on at its
                                most basic level. Unfortunately in the U.S., the synoptic problem is
                                usually taught as a single lecture in an undergraduate or master's level
                                class, generally by presenting the Mark-Q theory as the solution and
                                refracting what little data that can be described in an hour through that
                                lens.

                                Stephen
                                --
                                Stephen C. Carlson
                                Graduate Program in Religion
                                Duke University


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Chuck Jones
                                Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?). Chuck
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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                                  Good ole wiki.  I would say that given the prestige and stature of his publishing house, the horse story goes out the window (back to the barn?).

                                  Chuck
                                  ______________________

                                  Robert Estienne:

                                  "In 1532, he published the remarkable Thesaurus linguae latinae, and twice he published the entire Hebrew Bible — "one with the Commentary of Kimchi on the minor prophets, in 13 vols. 4to (quarto) (Paris, 1539-43), another in 10 vols. 16mo (sextodecimo) (ibid. 1544-46)."[4] Both of these editions are rare.

                                  "Of more importance are his four editions of the Greek New Testament, 1546, 1549, 1550, and 1551, the last in Geneva. The first two are among the neatest Greek texts known, and are called O mirificam; the third is a splendid masterpiece of typographical skill, and is known as the Editio Regia; the edition of 1551 contains the Latin translation of Erasmus and the Vulgate, is not nearly as fine as the other three, and is exceedingly rare. It was in this edition that the division of the New Testament into verses was for the first time introduced."


                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Emmanuel Fritsch <emmanuel.fritsch@...>
                                  To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 6:11 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] when is a verse not a verse?


                                   
                                  Stephen Carlson a écrit :
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:30 PM, David Mealand <D.Mealand@...
                                  > <mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk>> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I usually heard it joked that every time there was a bump in the road,
                                  > a new
                                  > verse came into being.
                                  >
                                  For the bump, I did not know, but the horse travel is considered to be
                                  true in France.
                                  The scholar was the great printer, publisher and editor Robert Estienne.

                                  Some details and other stuff (including a reference in english) in :

                                  http://books.google.com/books?id=ULHVwKJYO38C&lpg=PA54&ots=qLLSqRnDUL&dq=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=d%C3%A9coupage%20des%20versets%20estienne&f=false

                                  a+
                                  manu



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Mealand
                                  The French passage cited here recently runs that Stephanus himself says in his letter to the reader (Concordance 1594) that he did the verse division on his
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 7, 2011
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                                    The French passage cited here recently
                                    runs that Stephanus himself says in his
                                    letter to the reader (Concordance 1594)
                                    that he did the verse division on his journey
                                    from Paris to Lyon - mostly on horseback...

                                    So Stephen Carlson seems to be right about
                                    the bumps...

                                    The account is not quite from the horse's mouth
                                    though, but seems to be the nearest thing...


                                    ---------
                                    David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                                    --
                                    The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                                    Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
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