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Re: [Synoptic-L] Ephesians 4 and 5 - forgiveness and sacrifices pleasing to God

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  • David Gentile
    Hello again, Jefferey: you ve wholly begged the question in asserting that salt has cultic connotations in Mk. 9:50 Dave: GEHENNA was a place where human
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 13, 2006
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      Hello again,

      Jefferey: you've wholly begged the question in asserting that "salt" has cultic connotations in Mk. 9:50

      Dave: GEHENNA was a place where human sacrifices by fire were made in the past. When the salt sayings immediately follow GEHENNA, the obvious link between the two is they both relate to sacrifices.

      Jefferey: What bothers me about this is not only that that you've had to both go outside of Mark AND ignore and manipulate a great deal of what Ephesians 4:32ff actually says

      Dave: I didn't do any manipulation, I quoted my New Jeruselem bible. In looking back at it I notice I left out the "love" clause. That was actually unintentional. And granted, I left out text before and after it, and I did not look at other translations or the original Greek, but it was a quick note. I will look into it more.

      As for going outside Mark, I don't see a problem there. We want to try to determine how the early Christian community viewed metaphorical salt. Paul certainly seems a valid place to look for help with that.

      Jefferey: establish that **Mark** thinks that "forgiving others" is what renders a community a "sweet smelling sacrifice acceptable to God

      Dave:

      Mark 11 establishes that Mark thinks forgiveness is needed for forgiveness. (And there are other clues in Mark that reinforce that, like the measure, and possibly the little children)

      Reading Mark 9 in light of Mark 11 as a plan of salvation, makes Mark 9 a unified whole. Then Paul's comments relating "forgiveness of others" to "making yourself a sacrifice" (Ep.4-5), and relating "being a sacrifice" to "being acceptable to God" (Rom 12) reinforces that reading.

      If we take Ep. and Rom. together we can say that Paul thinks that having forgiveness (and love) for others makes one a sacrifice acceptable to God. It hardly seems far-fetched to say that when Mark is talking about salt and Gehenna he might have been sayng the same thing. Particularly since he says in Mark 11, that we should forgive to be forgiven.

      Dave Gentile
      Riverside, IL



      What bothers me about this is not only that that you've had to both go outside of Mark AND ignore and manipulate a great deal of what Ephesians 4:32ff actually says in order to establish that **Mark** thinks that "forgiving others" is what renders a community a "sweet smelling sacrifice acceptable to God"), but that you've wholly begged the question in asserting that "salt" has cultic connotations in Mk. 9:50 and that what Mark is on about in this passage is the necessity of forgiveness, let alone how one becomes an acceptable sacrifice to God.
      Until this is actually established, there is no reason to see your assertion or the conclusion you draw from it as anything other than eisegesis.

      JG
      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Dave, just in case there s some confusion here (i.e., Jefferey ), you re discussing this with Jeffrey Gibson, not Jeffery Hodges. Jeffery Hodges ...
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 13, 2006
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        Dave, just in case there's some confusion here (i.e.,
        "Jefferey"), you're discussing this with Jeffrey
        Gibson, not Jeffery Hodges.

        Jeffery Hodges

        --- David Gentile <GentDave@...> wrote:

        > Hello again,
        >
        > Jefferey: you've wholly begged the question in
        > asserting that "salt" has cultic connotations in
        > Mk. 9:50
        >
        > Dave: GEHENNA was a place where human sacrifices by
        > fire were made in the past. When the salt sayings
        > immediately follow GEHENNA, the obvious link between
        > the two is they both relate to sacrifices.
        >
        > Jefferey: What bothers me about this is not only
        > that that you've had to both go outside of Mark AND
        > ignore and manipulate a great deal of what
        > Ephesians 4:32ff actually says
        >
        > Dave: I didn't do any manipulation, I quoted my New
        > Jeruselem bible. In looking back at it I notice I
        > left out the "love" clause. That was actually
        > unintentional. And granted, I left out text before
        > and after it, and I did not look at other
        > translations or the original Greek, but it was a
        > quick note. I will look into it more.
        >
        > As for going outside Mark, I don't see a problem
        > there. We want to try to determine how the early
        > Christian community viewed metaphorical salt. Paul
        > certainly seems a valid place to look for help with
        > that.
        >
        > Jefferey: establish that **Mark** thinks that
        > "forgiving others" is what renders a community a
        > "sweet smelling sacrifice acceptable to God
        >
        > Dave:
        >
        > Mark 11 establishes that Mark thinks forgiveness is
        > needed for forgiveness. (And there are other clues
        > in Mark that reinforce that, like the measure, and
        > possibly the little children)
        >
        > Reading Mark 9 in light of Mark 11 as a plan of
        > salvation, makes Mark 9 a unified whole. Then Paul's
        > comments relating "forgiveness of others" to "making
        > yourself a sacrifice" (Ep.4-5), and relating "being
        > a sacrifice" to "being acceptable to God" (Rom 12)
        > reinforces that reading.
        >
        > If we take Ep. and Rom. together we can say that
        > Paul thinks that having forgiveness (and love) for
        > others makes one a sacrifice acceptable to God. It
        > hardly seems far-fetched to say that when Mark is
        > talking about salt and Gehenna he might have been
        > sayng the same thing. Particularly since he says in
        > Mark 11, that we should forgive to be forgiven.
        >
        > Dave Gentile
        > Riverside, IL

        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
        Sinnae-dong 795
        Jungrang-gu
        Seoul 131-770
        South Korea
      • David Gentile
        Er..oops. Thanks. I was in a hurry. My wife and I were headed out for an early valentines day, and you can t delay things like that. ... Apologies. Dave
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 13, 2006
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          Er..oops. Thanks. I was in a hurry. My wife and I were headed out for an
          early valentines day, and you can't delay things like that.
          :o)
          Apologies.

          Dave Gentile
          Riverside, IL



          > Dave, just in case there's some confusion here (i.e.,
          > "Jefferey"), you're discussing this with Jeffrey
          > Gibson, not Jeffery Hodges.
          >
          > Jeffery Hodges
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