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Re: [Synoptic-L] Few (OLIGOS) in synoptic aphorisms

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  • Jeff Peterson
    Ron, One basic problem I have with your theory is that Papas doesn t define * logia* in the way you do; as quoted by Eusebius, Papias describes Mark as a
    Message 1 of 47 , Jul 2, 2011
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      Ron,

      One basic problem I have with your theory is that Papas doesn't define *
      logia* in the way you do; as quoted by Eusebius, Papias describes Mark as a
      presentation of the *logia*, also described as the "things said or done by
      Christ," though lacking in order and artfulness of arrangement; Matthew, in
      contrast, "concatenated the *logia*," providing them with the artful
      arrangement that was lacking in Mark. Papias' *logia*, in other words, form
      books like Mark and Matthew.

      For this reason, Austin Farrer suggests the translator of Papias render *
      logia* as "oracles" or "divine teachings" rather than "sayings" (for which
      one would expect *logoi*); he notes that the title of Papias' book (which to
      judge from Eusebius' quotations was by no means limited to the teachings of
      Jesus) was *Exposition of the *Logia* of the Lord.* FWIW, I think Farrer has
      the best explanation of the Papias fragment, as an attempt to explain why
      multiple, superficially similar accounts of Jesus' life were in circulation
      in the late first and early second century; Papias' explanation is that Mark
      originated as a sort of "reporter's notebook" account, the first draft of
      Jesus' history as taught orally by Peter, whereas (extant) Matthew and Luke
      were variant Greek translations of (hypothetical) Semitic Matthew.

      But you don't have to accept Farrer's interpretation of Papias, or Papias'
      account of Gospel origins, to recognize that what Papias means by *logia* is
      "anecdotes relating things said or done by Jesus." The fragments of Papias
      supply no evidence for the existence of a written collection of Jesus'
      sayings along the lines of Q or the *Gospel according to Thomas.*
      *
      *
      Jeff Peterson
      Austin Graduate School of Theology
      Austin, Texas

      On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Ronald Price <ron-price@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > On 02/07/2011 15:19, "Bruce Brooks" <brooks@...> wrote:
      >
      > > It would surely be remarkable if the Second Tier Gospels, singly or
      > jointly,
      > > had a better pipeline to Jesus than the earlier Mark.
      > >
      > Bruce,
      >
      > When I first started to investigate the gospels from a historical point of
      > view, I also thought Mark would be the best place to look. Indeed Mark is
      > the best source for the passion and death of Jesus, though of course it
      > needs to be approached using the tools of biblical criticism.
      >
      > But Mark is not the best source for the teaching of Jesus. This is because
      > the authors of the gospels of Matthew (ca. 90 CE) and Luke (ca. 95 CE) were
      > more historically dependable than Mark in their copying of the aphorisms
      > recorded (as Papias noted) by the apostle Matthew.
      >
      >
      > Ron Price,
      >
      > Derbyshire, UK
      >
      > http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


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    • David Inglis
      David Mealand wrote: So for instance to step aside from Q and M, let us consider the special Lukan material. It would be useful there to review and update
      Message 47 of 47 , Jul 26, 2011
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        David Mealand wrote:

        So for instance to step aside from Q and M, let us consider the special Lukan material. It would be useful there to review and update existing studies to see if the "L" material is a) internally consistent or not and b) differs from the editorial style of the author of Gospel number 3. Could this be an issue on which 2SH and FGT adherents might proceed in unison? Or am I being unduly optimistic here?

        David, some information can be gleaned from the stylistic analyses of the categories in the HHB concordance performed by both Dave Gentile and myself. The following 4 collections of words (HHB categories) are useful here, I think:

        · 002 – Words used in passages unique to gLk (i.e. sondergut Lk)

        · 012 – Words used in gLk in passages shared with gMk but not gMt, where the words are not in gMk

        · 102 – Words used in gLk in passages shared with gMt but not gMk, where the words are not in gMt (i.e. double tradition words not in gMt)

        · 112 – Words used in gLk in passage shared with both gMt and gMk, where the words are not in either gMt or gMk (i.e. triple tradition words not in gMt or gMk)

        Both Dave G and I have similar findings: The frequencies with which specific words are used (profiles) are similar in 002, 012, and 112, while the profile of 102 is different. In particular, I find that the similarity between the profiles of 002 and 112 is one of the greatest in my analysis, i.e. sondergut Lk is stylistically similar (at least, so far as word frequencies are concerned) to the unique Lukan parts of the triple tradition. From this I infer that 002 is unlikely to contain passages from different sources, or, if it does, that aLk has generally ‘massaged’ the text from the different sources into his own style.

        David Inglis, Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



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