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hate in Lk 14:26

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  • Ronald Price
    The hate in Lk 14:26 is usually taken as original, with Matthew s love ... more than in Mt 10:37 as a softening of the saying. If this is so, then the 2ST
    Message 1 of 42 , Jun 24, 2011
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      The "hate" in Lk 14:26 is usually taken as original, with Matthew's "love
      ... more than" in Mt 10:37 as a softening of the saying. If this is so, then
      the 2ST and 3ST can readily explain it, but the FT must look for an
      alternative explanation.

      Goulder gamely faced up to the problem (Luke, 596), claiming that Luke
      introduced "hate" as a result of his "regular ascetic tendency", referring
      to 14:20 ("I have just got married so I cannot come").

      This looks like a very weak argument. Deriving a tendency of an author from
      the behaviour of a character in one of his parables seems to me highly
      dubious. I'm not aware of any other commentator describing Luke as an
      ascetic.

      Is there any support for Goulder's apparently strange argument?

      Anyway I have added this element ("hate" in Lk 14:26) to my list of elements
      in Lukan aphorisms which are widely considered to be more primitive than the
      corresponding element in Matthew (web page below, under ³Occasional Lukan
      Originality²). This list provides evidence for the existence of a primitive
      collection of 'aphorisms attributed to Jesus'.

      Ron Price,

      Derbyshire, UK

      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_LkMt.html


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack Kilmon
      Hit send prematurely. Sorry everone. Continuing: Matthew 9:9 recounts: And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the
      Message 42 of 42 , Jun 30, 2011
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        Hit send prematurely. Sorry everone. Continuing:

        Matthew 9:9 recounts:
        And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting
        at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose,
        and followed him.

        In real life, a customs franchise owner at his booth in K'far Nahum, cashbox
        in hand, is not going to just get up and leave when a "stranger" passes by
        and says, "Hey you! Follow me" but a cousin who has known Jesus all his life
        and has prior history with Jesus and his intention was expecting the call.
        It is my position that this ministry was a family enterprise.

        Jack

        Jack kilmon

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 11:56 AM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Thanks for the reply, Jack. Let the minutes reflect that I never mentioned
        Mary.

        Also, that Levi was a toll collector not an income tax collector doesn't
        change the larceny that was taxation and tribute under Roman occupation,
        neither does the identity of his particular victims.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia


        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 12:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26



        No, Chuck. I'm sorry if you confuse my passionate defense for a woman 2,000
        years dead for the unfair Christian slander foisted on her and continued,
        surprisingly today by some. The reality of insisting she was a prostitute,
        in spite of zero New Testament affirmation is indeed calling her a whore.
        πόρνη in Aramaic is זניתא
        "Zoniyto" in English is "whore" or prostitute, harlot, hooker.

        Also I have no emotion beyond my investment in understanding the social,
        cultural, political anthropology in which Jesus moved. I am well aware of
        his ministry to the disenfranchised of Judean and Galilean society, those
        considered "last" whom he insisted would be "first." My only passion since
        childhood has been understanding this very unique person in human history by
        learning his language and the family and social customs in 1st century
        Galilee and Judea.

        Jack

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:57 AM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        You're selective reading of my posts and your selective interpretation of
        historical nuggets are suggestive of an agenda. Which seems to reveals
        itself when you accuse Mark of calling Mary "a whore." I conclude from that
        that if history did reveal that Mary or other of Jesus' followers were in
        fact prostitutes you would have nothing but contempt for them.

        It seems to me that you have a lot emotionally at stake concerning where
        Jesus was on a Puritan-o-meter.

        Seems to me.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 3:41 AM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        No Chuck, I'll respond to both you and Mark on what is factually faulty.
        I'll use your assertions that Maryam of Migdal was a whore. It was Pope
        Gregory in 590 CE who conflated the unknown sinful woman at the Pharisee's
        house (Luke 7:36-50) with Mary Magdalene (Luke 8:2) who, btw, Luke writes
        about afterward, separately and differently with another unnamed sinful
        woman (Mark 14:3) and the woman taken in adultery in John. Poor Mary!
        Victimized by Christian preachers, jealous of her position as a disciple,
        the first to see the risen Jesus and chagrinned she is mentioned 14 times
        (more often than the Virgin Mary and most of the disciples). I am not
        interested in doing exegesis after such notables as Brown in the Da Vinci
        Code, Mel Gibson and Nikos Kazantsakis. I find it odd that although the
        Roman Church has repented for slandering MM in its 6th century Latin Rite,
        Protestant traditions still slander her without a scintilla of Biblical
        support. Pope Gregory has eternity to apologize to her. That's how I know
        she was NOT a whore, Mark.

        On Mark's second question regarding Matthew's collection of customs taxes at
        K'far Nahum for himself after paying a lump sum to the Tetrarch of the
        Galilee, that is how it was done. Herod then paid the Romans an annual
        tribute. If my files and library were not in boxes as I move, I would give
        you sources on Roman provincial praxis and how the Galilee was handled. I
        am surprised you ask me questions that are clearly answered by
        extra-Biblical sources regarding Roman/Judean taxation by Antipas. Matthew
        was collecting taxes in K'far Nahum in the Galilee which was not part of the
        province of Judea but was the domain of Herod Antipas. This was done by
        paying Herod a considerable amount of money (equivalent to about 50K) which
        he would have obtained from his father. K'far Nahum was the portal into the
        Galilee of the Damascus-Mediterranean trade route and silk road crossing
        Galilee to the ports of Tyre, Ptolmais and Caesarea. He was in the employ of
        Antipas and manned a taxation booth where the caravans had to stop and pay.

        Jack

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 7:48 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        I'm not sure where to go from here, as nearly everything in your first
        paragraph is factually faulty or unverified.

        Chuck

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 7:33 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        We have no idea who he was "consorting with," We do know that Maryam from
        Migdal was NOT a prostitute, a slander invented by...who else? Christians!
        Matthew was not a Roman nor did he collect taxes for the Romans. His
        father, "Alphaeus" or Halfy/Klopas was Jesus' uncle, according to Papias. He
        would have purchased the border customs concession from Herod Antipas for
        his son. That was a one time payment and Matthew got to keep what tariffs
        he charged incoming caravans into Galilee. He was not collecting taxes from
        Judeans. The "Zealots" charge is also iffy, supposedly taken from the
        disciple Shymeon Qanana and the label for Yehuda Ish-Kerioth (Iskariot) more
        likely refers to a place name.

        Jesus audience were those who were disenfranchised from the temple by the
        temple elite, the disabled, blind, deaf, "leprous" (which meant any skin
        condition) and all of which was considered to be the result of sin. This
        created a plausible explanation for many of the healing stories. These were
        the people whom Jesus claimed NEEDED a "physician."

        Jack Kilmon

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:01 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        What are we to do with his consorting with prostitutes (adultery)? Roman
        tax collectors (steal)? Zealots (kill)? I've never counted the verses, but
        it wouldn't surprise me if the number one complaint about Jesus in the
        synoptics is his keeping sinful company.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 3:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        I don't have enough information on your understanding of 2nd temple Judaic
        subsets to respond. The 10 commandments were inviolable. The Pharisaic
        oral Torah shebe'al peh posits a halakhah of over 613 laws under constant
        debate between Hillelites and Shammaites. The Sadducees went only by Torah
        shebi ktav. I don't know what you mean by "denominational traditions" in a
        2nd temple Jewish context. Jesus was Pharisaic and there in no way in his
        culture that he would condone breaking any of the "big 10."

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        «ἐξ ἱστορίας ἐὰν ἄρῃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν, τὸ καταλειπόμενον αὐτῆς ἀνωφελὲς γίνεται
        διήγημα»

        "if you take truth from history what is left is but an idle tale"

        Polybius [XII.12.3]

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:21 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        These are our choices? The Ten Commandments on the one hand or
        denominational traditions on the other? I'm thinking there were a few more
        commandments in the torah than 10....

        Chuck

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Examples of his violations of the decalog? No doubt his non-violations of
        Torah by Pharisaic standards, even Hillel vs Shammai, were violations to
        Sadducees.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:37 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        Jesus routinely violated the torah. Yours is a surprising point of view to
        me.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        I had thought about that also, Ron, while reconstructing Jesus' sayings in
        Aramaic. Certainly his use of Hyperbole, Kol w'homer, alliteration,
        paronomasia etc display his skill as a speaker. I just do not believe he
        would use a rhetorical device suggesting a severe violation of Torah if
        misunderstood and his audience for this saying were not that familiar with
        rhetoric as when he was talking to priests and scribes.

        Jack

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ronald Price
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:54 AM
        To: Synoptic-L
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        On 29/06/2011 16:23, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:

        > I am in the midst of moving and am missing a lot of prior mail. My
        > position
        > regarding MISEW in the case of Luke 14:26 as mistranslated Aramaic idiom
        > is
        > well known. I am not sure of your point here. The chances of any pious
        > Jew
        > of the 1st century advising disciples to HATE one's parents is absolutely
        > nil
        > .....
        >
        Jack,

        So are the chances of a camel going through the eye of a needle!!

        I have been defending the originality of the word "hate" in this verse in
        Luke, as opposed to some Farrer Theory supporters who take the word here as
        Lukan redaction.

        My point is that Jesus sometimes used hyperbole, as in the camel and the eye
        of a needle, or the log in the eye, and I would argue that the necessity for
        a disciple of Jesus to ³hate² members of his family was another example of
        hyperbole. Therefore in the saying about 'being my disciple' it is quite
        plausible to take the word ³hate² (or to be more exact, whatever was its
        Aramaic equivalent) as belonging to the logia (my posited Aramaic sayings
        source), and even as having been spoken by Jesus.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        San Antonio, TX

        «ἐξ ἱστορίας ἐὰν ἄρῃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν, τὸ καταλειπόμενον αὐτῆς ἀνωφελὲς γίνεται
        διήγημα»

        "if you take truth from history what is left is but an idle tale"

        Polybius [XII.12.3]

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:21 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        These are our choices? The Ten Commandments on the one hand or
        denominational traditions on the other? I'm thinking there were a few more
        commandments in the torah than 10....

        Chuck

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Examples of his violations of the decalog? No doubt his non-violations of
        Torah by Pharisaic standards, even Hillel vs Shammai, were violations to
        Sadducees.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:37 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        Jesus routinely violated the torah. Yours is a surprising point of view to
        me.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        I had thought about that also, Ron, while reconstructing Jesus' sayings in
        Aramaic. Certainly his use of Hyperbole, Kol w'homer, alliteration,
        paronomasia etc display his skill as a speaker. I just do not believe he
        would use a rhetorical device suggesting a severe violation of Torah if
        misunderstood and his audience for this saying were not that familiar with
        rhetoric as when he was talking to priests and scribes.

        Jack

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ronald Price
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:54 AM
        To: Synoptic-L
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        On 29/06/2011 16:23, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:

        > I am in the midst of moving and am missing a lot of prior mail. My
        > position
        > regarding MISEW in the case of Luke 14:26 as mistranslated Aramaic idiom
        > is
        > well known. I am not sure of your point here. The chances of any pious
        > Jew
        > of the 1st century advising disciples to HATE one's parents is absolutely
        > nil
        > .....
        >
        Jack,

        So are the chances of a camel going through the eye of a needle!!

        I have been defending the originality of the word "hate" in this verse in
        Luke, as opposed to some Farrer Theory supporters who take the word here as
        Lukan redaction.

        My point is that Jesus sometimes used hyperbole, as in the camel and the eye
        of a needle, or the log in the eye, and I would argue that the necessity for
        a disciple of Jesus to ³hate² members of his family was another example of
        hyperbole. Therefore in the saying about 'being my disciple' it is quite
        plausible to take the word ³hate² (or to be more exact, whatever was its
        Aramaic equivalent) as belonging to the logia (my posited Aramaic sayings
        source), and even as having been spoken by Jesus.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 3:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        I don't have enough information on your understanding of 2nd temple Judaic
        subsets to respond. The 10 commandments were inviolable. The Pharisaic
        oral Torah shebe'al peh posits a halakhah of over 613 laws under constant
        debate between Hillelites and Shammaites. The Sadducees went only by Torah
        shebi ktav. I don't know what you mean by "denominational traditions" in a
        2nd temple Jewish context. Jesus was Pharisaic and there in no way in his
        culture that he would condone breaking any of the "big 10."

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        «ἐξ ἱστορίας ἐὰν ἄρῃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν, τὸ καταλειπόμενον αὐτῆς ἀνωφελὲς γίνεται
        διήγημα»

        "if you take truth from history what is left is but an idle tale"

        Polybius [XII.12.3]

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:21 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        These are our choices? The Ten Commandments on the one hand or
        denominational traditions on the other? I'm thinking there were a few more
        commandments in the torah than 10....

        Chuck

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Examples of his violations of the decalog? No doubt his non-violations of
        Torah by Pharisaic standards, even Hillel vs Shammai, were violations to
        Sadducees.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:37 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        Jesus routinely violated the torah. Yours is a surprising point of view to
        me.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        I had thought about that also, Ron, while reconstructing Jesus' sayings in
        Aramaic. Certainly his use of Hyperbole, Kol w'homer, alliteration,
        paronomasia etc display his skill as a speaker. I just do not believe he
        would use a rhetorical device suggesting a severe violation of Torah if
        misunderstood and his audience for this saying were not that familiar with
        rhetoric as when he was talking to priests and scribes.

        Jack

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ronald Price
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:54 AM
        To: Synoptic-L
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        On 29/06/2011 16:23, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:

        > I am in the midst of moving and am missing a lot of prior mail. My
        > position
        > regarding MISEW in the case of Luke 14:26 as mistranslated Aramaic idiom
        > is
        > well known. I am not sure of your point here. The chances of any pious
        > Jew
        > of the 1st century advising disciples to HATE one's parents is absolutely
        > nil
        > .....
        >
        Jack,

        So are the chances of a camel going through the eye of a needle!!

        I have been defending the originality of the word "hate" in this verse in
        Luke, as opposed to some Farrer Theory supporters who take the word here as
        Lukan redaction.

        My point is that Jesus sometimes used hyperbole, as in the camel and the eye
        of a needle, or the log in the eye, and I would argue that the necessity for
        a disciple of Jesus to ³hate² members of his family was another example of
        hyperbole. Therefore in the saying about 'being my disciple' it is quite
        plausible to take the word ³hate² (or to be more exact, whatever was its
        Aramaic equivalent) as belonging to the logia (my posited Aramaic sayings
        source), and even as having been spoken by Jesus.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

        San Antonio, TX

        «ἐξ ἱστορίας ἐὰν ἄρῃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν, τὸ καταλειπόμενον αὐτῆς ἀνωφελὲς γίνεται
        διήγημα»

        "if you take truth from history what is left is but an idle tale"

        Polybius [XII.12.3]

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:21 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        These are our choices? The Ten Commandments on the one hand or
        denominational traditions on the other? I'm thinking there were a few more
        commandments in the torah than 10....

        Chuck

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Examples of his violations of the decalog? No doubt his non-violations of
        Torah by Pharisaic standards, even Hillel vs Shammai, were violations to
        Sadducees.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:37 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        Jesus routinely violated the torah. Yours is a surprising point of view to
        me.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        I had thought about that also, Ron, while reconstructing Jesus' sayings in
        Aramaic. Certainly his use of Hyperbole, Kol w'homer, alliteration,
        paronomasia etc display his skill as a speaker. I just do not believe he
        would use a rhetorical device suggesting a severe violation of Torah if
        misunderstood and his audience for this saying were not that familiar with
        rhetoric as when he was talking to priests and scribes.

        Jack

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ronald Price
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:54 AM
        To: Synoptic-L
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        On 29/06/2011 16:23, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:

        > I am in the midst of moving and am missing a lot of prior mail. My
        > position
        > regarding MISEW in the case of Luke 14:26 as mistranslated Aramaic idiom
        > is
        > well known. I am not sure of your point here. The chances of any pious
        > Jew
        > of the 1st century advising disciples to HATE one's parents is absolutely
        > nil
        > .....
        >
        Jack,

        So are the chances of a camel going through the eye of a needle!!

        I have been defending the originality of the word "hate" in this verse in
        Luke, as opposed to some Farrer Theory supporters who take the word here as
        Lukan redaction.

        My point is that Jesus sometimes used hyperbole, as in the camel and the eye
        of a needle, or the log in the eye, and I would argue that the necessity for
        a disciple of Jesus to ³hate² members of his family was another example of
        hyperbole. Therefore in the saying about 'being my disciple' it is quite
        plausible to take the word ³hate² (or to be more exact, whatever was its
        Aramaic equivalent) as belonging to the logia (my posited Aramaic sayings
        source), and even as having been spoken by Jesus.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

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        San Antonio, TX

        «ἐξ ἱστορίας ἐὰν ἄρῃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν, τὸ καταλειπόμενον αὐτῆς ἀνωφελὲς γίνεται

        "if you take truth from history what is left is but an idle tale"

        Polybius [XII.12.3]

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:21 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        These are our choices? The Ten Commandments on the one hand or
        denominational traditions on the other? I'm thinking there were a few more
        commandments in the torah than 10....

        Chuck

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Examples of his violations of the decalog? No doubt his non-violations of
        Torah by Pharisaic standards, even Hillel vs Shammai, were violations to
        Sadducees.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:37 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        Jesus routinely violated the torah. Yours is a surprising point of view to
        me.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        I had thought about that also, Ron, while reconstructing Jesus' sayings in
        Aramaic. Certainly his use of Hyperbole, Kol w'homer, alliteration,
        paronomasia etc display his skill as a speaker. I just do not believe he
        would use a rhetorical device suggesting a severe violation of Torah if
        misunderstood and his audience for this saying were not that familiar with
        rhetoric as when he was talking to priests and scribes.

        Jack

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ronald Price
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:54 AM
        To: Synoptic-L
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        On 29/06/2011 16:23, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:

        > I am in the midst of moving and am missing a lot of prior mail. My
        > position
        > regarding MISEW in the case of Luke 14:26 as mistranslated Aramaic idiom
        > is
        > well known. I am not sure of your point here. The chances of any pious
        > Jew
        > of the 1st century advising disciples to HATE one's parents is absolutely
        > nil
        > .....
        >
        Jack,

        So are the chances of a camel going through the eye of a needle!!

        I have been defending the originality of the word "hate" in this verse in
        Luke, as opposed to some Farrer Theory supporters who take the word here as
        Lukan redaction.

        My point is that Jesus sometimes used hyperbole, as in the camel and the eye
        of a needle, or the log in the eye, and I would argue that the necessity for
        a disciple of Jesus to ³hate² members of his family was another example of
        hyperbole. Therefore in the saying about 'being my disciple' it is quite
        plausible to take the word ³hate² (or to be more exact, whatever was its
        Aramaic equivalent) as belonging to the logia (my posited Aramaic sayings
        source), and even as having been spoken by Jesus.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

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        San Antonio, TX

        «ἐξ ἱστορίας ἐὰν ἄρῃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν, τὸ καταλειπόμενον αὐτῆς ἀνωφελὲς γίνεται

        "if you take truth from history what is left is but an idle tale"

        Polybius [XII.12.3]

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:21 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        These are our choices? The Ten Commandments on the one hand or
        denominational traditions on the other? I'm thinking there were a few more
        commandments in the torah than 10....

        Chuck

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Examples of his violations of the decalog? No doubt his non-violations of
        Torah by Pharisaic standards, even Hillel vs Shammai, were violations to
        Sadducees.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chuck Jones
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:37 PM
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        Jack,

        Jesus routinely violated the torah. Yours is a surprising point of view to
        me.

        Chuck

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia

        ________________________________
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        I had thought about that also, Ron, while reconstructing Jesus' sayings in
        Aramaic. Certainly his use of Hyperbole, Kol w'homer, alliteration,
        paronomasia etc display his skill as a speaker. I just do not believe he
        would use a rhetorical device suggesting a severe violation of Torah if
        misunderstood and his audience for this saying were not that familiar with
        rhetoric as when he was talking to priests and scribes.

        Jack

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ronald Price
        Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:54 AM
        To: Synoptic-L
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] hate in Lk 14:26

        On 29/06/2011 16:23, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:

        > I am in the midst of moving and am missing a lot of prior mail. My
        > position
        > regarding MISEW in the case of Luke 14:26 as mistranslated Aramaic idiom
        > is
        > well known. I am not sure of your point here. The chances of any pious
        > Jew
        > of the 1st century advising disciples to HATE one's parents is absolutely
        > nil
        > .....
        >
        Jack,

        So are the chances of a camel going through the eye of a needle!!

        I have been defending the originality of the word "hate" in this verse in
        Luke, as opposed to some Farrer Theory supporters who take the word here as
        Lukan redaction.

        My point is that Jesus sometimes used hyperbole, as in the camel and the eye
        of a needle, or the log in the eye, and I would argue that the necessity for
        a disciple of Jesus to ³hate² members of his family was another example of
        hyperbole. Therefore in the saying about 'being my disciple' it is quite
        plausible to take the word ³hate² (or to be more exact, whatever was its
        Aramaic equivalent) as belonging to the logia (my posited Aramaic sayings
        source), and even as having been spoken by Jesus.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_home.html

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

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        ------------------------------------

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        διήγημα»
        διήγημα»

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