Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Synoptic-L] The Synoptics and John

Expand Messages
  • Maluflen@aol.com
    Leonard: What is found in Mark on JB, and not in Matthew, is a teaching about John that is continuous with later church teaching and practice. Bruce: Not
    Message 1 of 35 , May 17, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Leonard: What is found in Mark on JB, and not in Matthew, is a teaching
      about John that is continuous with later church teaching and practice.

      Bruce: Not proved, and not provable on that evidence. The later church
      bloweth where it listeth.

      Leonard: I am stating fact here, not attempting to prove anything
      (yet). It is a fact that we find in Mark a reference to JB as a holy
      and righteous man, a saint, that is. This is how we encounter JB within
      the later Christian community as well. In Matthew it is a fact that we
      do not find this or an equivalent image of John clearly expressed; we
      do find in Matthew (and not in Mark) a John who is doubtful about the
      true identity of Jesus (11:2-3). This diverges somewhat from the later
      view of JB as a saint.

      The argument, or proof, begins after the recognition of these facts,
      and no amount of words can obscure the evidence itself. Of course one
      cannot legitimately make of this a definitive argument for Matthean
      priority; the evidence is, however, consistent with that hypothesis,
      and with the idea of Mark as a secondary and later Gospel, reflecting
      an attitude toward John that is closer to that of the later church. It
      is also consistent with the fact that Mark, unlike Matthew, presents
      the apostles of Jesus as exorcists and wonder-workers (Mk 6:12-13). In
      Matthew the apostles receive the commission by Jesus to engage in these
      activities, but are never shown actually doing anything of the kind.
      GMk is thus closer to Acts of the Apostles type writing, which is found
      in the canonical book by that name, and in a series of later works with
      similar titles, well into the second century and beyond.

      Leonard: What is found in Matthew on JB, and not in Mark, connects JB to
      Moses and other prophetic figures of the OT who spoke with God's
      authority,
      and it also makes of John a focus of "belief" (an idea not continuous
      with
      the teaching of Paul [Pauline "faith" vocabulary] or of the later
      Christian
      church).

      Bruce: Matthew is the big leader in OT prediction and fulfilment, and
      in OT
      linkages generally. Mark makes very sparing use of that device, though
      Mark
      also has his theory of earlier analogues of Jesus.

      Leonard: This is simply obfuscation, rather response to my statements.
      The Matthean text alluded to (Matt 21:28-32) has nothing at all to do
      with the idea of prediction and fulfillment of OT prophecy. In this
      text, Jesus rebukes his audience for not having believed in John, who
      came to them "in the way of righteousness". The spontaneous next step
      for a later Christian author (a Pauline-influenced author, e.g.) would
      have been for Jesus to go on to rebuke them in a climactic way for not
      then believing in him. This indictment remains however only implicit in
      the text; instead, Jesus goes on to rebuke his audience for not then
      converting to belief in John, even after witnessing the conversion to
      this faith of tax-collectors and harlots. Altogether three references
      to "faith" with JB as (indirect) object. This is relatively early
      writing. After Paul, faith terminology in early Christian writings is
      exclusively faith in God or in Jesus. Again, not proof of Matthew as
      the earliest Gospel, but consistent with that view. In any case, these
      facts provide a good rationalization for why later Gospel writers (Luke
      and Mark, for instance), influenced by Paul, may have omitted a passage
      like Matt 21:28-32.

      Leonard Maluf
    • Maluflen@aol.com
      Leonard: What is found in Mark on JB, and not in Matthew, is a teaching about John that is continuous with later church teaching and practice. Bruce: Not
      Message 35 of 35 , May 17, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Leonard: What is found in Mark on JB, and not in Matthew, is a teaching
        about John that is continuous with later church teaching and practice.

        Bruce: Not proved, and not provable on that evidence. The later church
        bloweth where it listeth.

        Leonard: I am stating fact here, not attempting to prove anything
        (yet). It is a fact that we find in Mark a reference to JB as a holy
        and righteous man, a saint, that is. This is how we encounter JB within
        the later Christian community as well. In Matthew it is a fact that we
        do not find this or an equivalent image of John clearly expressed; we
        do find in Matthew (and not in Mark) a John who is doubtful about the
        true identity of Jesus (11:2-3). This diverges somewhat from the later
        view of JB as a saint.

        The argument, or proof, begins after the recognition of these facts,
        and no amount of words can obscure the evidence itself. Of course one
        cannot legitimately make of this a definitive argument for Matthean
        priority; the evidence is, however, consistent with that hypothesis,
        and with the idea of Mark as a secondary and later Gospel, reflecting
        an attitude toward John that is closer to that of the later church. It
        is also consistent with the fact that Mark, unlike Matthew, presents
        the apostles of Jesus as exorcists and wonder-workers (Mk 6:12-13). In
        Matthew the apostles receive the commission by Jesus to engage in these
        activities, but are never shown actually doing anything of the kind.
        GMk is thus closer to Acts of the Apostles type writing, which is found
        in the canonical book by that name, and in a series of later works with
        similar titles, well into the second century and beyond.

        Leonard: What is found in Matthew on JB, and not in Mark, connects JB to
        Moses and other prophetic figures of the OT who spoke with God's
        authority,
        and it also makes of John a focus of "belief" (an idea not continuous
        with
        the teaching of Paul [Pauline "faith" vocabulary] or of the later
        Christian
        church).

        Bruce: Matthew is the big leader in OT prediction and fulfilment, and
        in OT
        linkages generally. Mark makes very sparing use of that device, though
        Mark
        also has his theory of earlier analogues of Jesus.

        Leonard: This is simply obfuscation, rather response to my statements.
        The Matthean text alluded to (Matt 21:28-32) has nothing at all to do
        with the idea of prediction and fulfillment of OT prophecy. In this
        text, Jesus rebukes his audience for not having believed in John, who
        came to them "in the way of righteousness". The spontaneous next step
        for a later Christian author (a Pauline-influenced author, e.g.) would
        have been for Jesus to go on to rebuke them in a climactic way for not
        then believing in him. This indictment remains however only implicit in
        the text; instead, Jesus goes on to rebuke his audience for not then
        converting to belief in John, even after witnessing the conversion to
        this faith of tax-collectors and harlots. Altogether three references
        to "faith" with JB as (indirect) object. This is relatively early
        writing. After Paul, faith terminology in early Christian writings is
        exclusively faith in God or in Jesus. Again, not proof of Matthew as
        the earliest Gospel, but consistent with that view. In any case, these
        facts provide a good rationalization for why later Gospel writers (Luke
        and Mark, for instance), influenced by Paul, may have omitted a passage
        like Matt 21:28-32.

        Leonard Maluf
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.