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Re: [Synoptic-L] Point of clarification concerning Abba

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  • John Lupia
    ... When you claim the concept of God as intimate friend is based in Homer (which you never support with evidence) equating the concept to Jesus use in MK
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 9, 2005
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      --- Richard Richmond <rickr2889@...> wrote:

      > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word but
      > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
      > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
      > tradition.


      When you claim the "concept of God as intimate friend"
      is based in Homer (which you never support with
      evidence) equating the concept to Jesus' use in MK
      then you must mean that the Homeric concept of God is
      monotheistic and the relationship is far more intimate
      than "friend" but as one's daddy. Where in Homer do we
      find a monotheistic concept of God and anyone
      portrayed as speaking to this monotheistic God as
      their daddy?


      RICK: "It is a Greek thought not Jewish."

      So you are saying that monotheism is Homeric era Greek
      existing in Homeric texts (which are not cited)
      predating any Jewish concept. This further implies
      that the Jews borrowed this idea from the Homeric
      Greeks and you have evidence and proof of this claim.
      It further implies that MK knew of this and is too
      borrowing from Homer (yet uncited) since Paul before
      MK had already done so.

      Well, where's the evidence?

      John


      John N. Lupia, III
      Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
      Fax: (732) 349-3910
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
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    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... Could you please cite the specific texts in the Iliad or the Odyssey in which you see the concept of God as intimate friend   expressed? Jeffrey ...
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 10, 2005
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        Richard Richmond wrote:

        > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word but
        > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
        > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
        > tradition.

        Could you please cite the specific texts in the Iliad or the Odyssey in
        which you see "the concept of God as intimate friend"� expressed?

        Jeffrey
        ---

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        Chicago, IL 60626

        jgibson000@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Lupia
        ... Jeffrey B. Gibson ... Dear Jeffrey; I already asked and thrice pointed out his claim was left uncited without sources, apparently to deaf ears. He did
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 10, 2005
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          > Richard Richmond wrote:
          >
          > > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word
          > but
          > > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
          > > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
          > > tradition.





          "Jeffrey B. Gibson"

          > Could you please cite the specific texts in the
          > Iliad or the Odyssey in
          > which you see "the concept of God as intimate
          > friend"  expressed?


          Dear Jeffrey;

          I already asked and thrice pointed out his claim was
          left uncited without sources, apparently to deaf ears.
          He did answer by twisting things around saying: "As to
          the citations, do you really care where HO AGAQOS or
          ATTA can be found, will it change anything?"


          However, he also not only changes his claim but his
          mind. For example, in his previous post he said:


          And
          > Matthew also has ABBA missing from the Garden
          > narrative. Now Paul writing many years before either
          > of the Synoptics uses ABBA in the context of prayer.
          > The word is EXCLUSIVE to the text of Mark and the
          > Pauline Letters of Romans and Galatians. These are
          > the
          > facts and they indicate that Paul has a broader
          > understanding of how one can relate to God the
          > Father.
          > I say that is due to the influence of Greek Culture
          > and Classic Greek Literature in his upbringing and
          that Mark has drawn it from the writing of Paul.

          Lupia:
          So Paul’s influence by Greek Culture and Classic Greek
          Literature is the cause or reason why Paul uses ABBA
          and not PATER. I thought Rick claimed that he: "did
          not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word."
          Apparently he does think Abba is Greek since Paul
          learned to use this word "due to the influence of
          Greek Culture and Classic Greek Literature in his
          upbringing." As Rick says: "These are the facts". Now
          how can anyone argue with that rationale and logic?

          BTW nice work on the Hort links.


          Best regards,
          John N. Lupia, III



          John N. Lupia, III
          Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
          Fax: (732) 349-3910
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
          God Bless America



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